Epic's Tim Sweeney: Future updates to Windows 10 could intentionally cripple Steam
The Epic co-founder believes the Windows 10 developer 'will force-patch Windows 10 to make Steam progressively worse and more broken.'
In an interview with Edge magazine (via PC Gamer), Epic co-founder Tim Sweeney shared his opinion that Microsoft could weaponize future updates to Windows 10 to destabilize competing storefronts—namely Valve's Steam, the biggest competitor to the Windows Store.
Sweeney outlines his case. For the past few decades, PC apps have been written for 32-bit environments, or Win32 codebase. That includes every PC game for Steam. Unfortunately, Win32 has a fatal flaw. "It’s been both responsible for the vibrant software market we have now, but also for malware. Any program can be a virus," he said.
Enter Microsoft's Universal Windows Platform, or UWP. According to Sweeney, it's next to impossible for UWP apps to contain or be viruses because they exist in Microsoft's sandbox. They're vetted, and locked down.
"The risk here is that, if Microsoft convinces everybody to use UWP, then they phase out Win32 apps. If they can succeed in doing that then it’s a small leap to forcing all apps and games to be distributed through the Windows Store. Once we reach that point, the PC has become a closed platform. It won’t be that one day they flip a switch that will break your Steam library – what they’re trying to do is a series of sneaky maneuvers. They make it more and more inconvenient to use the old apps, and, simultaneously, they try to become the only source for the new ones."
When asked for to expand on his theory, the Epic co-founder postulated that all Microsoft has to do to turn users off of Steam is patch Windows 10 to chip away at compatibility for Win32-compatible software. Year after year, patch after patch, Steam and other Win32 apps would become progressively more unstable and inconvenient to use. In parallel, the UWP will become more attractive.
"They’ll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seems like an ideal alternative. That’s exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they’re doing it to Steam. It’s only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan, but they’re certainly trying."
Should you somehow get the impression that Sweeney is in favor of Microsoft throwing its weight around with UWP, think again. He and others have been vocal about the dangers of locking developers out of certain features and functions unless they agree to write software exclusively for the platform.
This strategy—should Microsoft move forward with it—has the potential stifle innovation, if not suffocate it outright. Sweeney believes the PC has remained at the forefront of graphical innovations due to the platform's open nature. By herding developers into its walled garden, Microsoft would set the pace of new technologies—not just graphics, but VR, AR, and other game changers.
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David Craddock posted a new article, Epic's Tim Sweeney: Future updates to Windows 10 could intentionally cripple Steam
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Exactly. Outlook mobile supports competing services like Dropbox and others out of the box. They release their products for competing OSes too. Why not lock everyone to onedrive? Probably because people like having choice.
I don't see Microsoft suddenly deciding to suddenly block or cripple one of the most popular services on PC because of some short sighted decision. It does them no good at all.
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"They’ll never completely break it, but will continue to break it until, in five years, people are so fed up that Steam is buggy that the Windows Store seems like an ideal alternative. That’s exactly what they did to their previous competitors in other areas. Now they’re doing it to Steam. It’s only just starting to become visible. Microsoft might not be competent enough to succeed with their plan, but they’re certainly trying."
After the Internet Explorer/Netscape debacle and the ensuing anti-trust suits, I can't think of when they tried this again.
While I agree it's theoretically feasible they could try this, I can't see it happening without a similar suit being brought against them again for anti-competitive behavior.-
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I get the theory, even if it's completely unplausbile, in that Windows doing this vs. other closed platforms would be a much more damaging scenario. If Apple, Google, Steam or EA did this, you've got a competing platform to go to. If Microsoft did this, it would effectively shut down all other platforms except their own.
But again I reiterate, this is never going to happen. -
Completely absurd? Hah!
Apple is known to have blocked Flash on the iPhone because it was a direct competitor to their upcoming app store.
Sure, battery performance and usability will be their arguments but..
I've read before they also did the same on the Safari front, making websites load slower so people would use more apps, less web surfing. It's been a while, i don't know all the details. I'm sure you can dig this on Google if you want.
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The only way this would ever happen is if they split the OS into an enterprise and consumer version more than it already is. It seems highly unlikely.
Especially given the failure of Win 8 ARM.
Microsoft has made some dumb moves but there's no way they're going to murder their entire user base by taking away Win32 any time soon. -
reeks so strongly of "i have something to gain by making you believe this" instead of an actual concern. win32 is going to be with us for fucking forever. way longer than anybody wants. this is going to be a "greatly overstayed its welcome" situation, not a "ok guys win32 is gone, p.s. fuck you" situation. microsoft made one tiny step in that direction with WinRT and they stepped directly on a landmine and it blew up in their face. they won't make that mistake again. win32 will stick around until it's completely irrelevant and nobody cares that they're removing it
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? huh, I don't under stand what Tim Sweeney is talking about or concerned about. It doesn't seem correct at all.
I can build both x86 (32bit) and x64(64 bit) UWP apps(I just did and have done before) it has nothing to do with a application targeting 32bit. I don't know why he is even talking about 32bit other than the Steam client is 32bit app, but that is irrelevant for it doesn't matter at all.
Steam will simply re write their client as a 32bit or 64bit UWP app and be done with it, Steam is only a fancy application launcher. Nothing will change.
I don't see the problem at all and even if MS forced UWP applications only on Windows 10 + for now on it could never stop Valve from having a UWP client of Steam.
Unless I am missing something I don't get what he is concerned about what so ever?
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Yup. Even if they completely nuke the Win32 API they could still make a UWP app and it's especially easier with the Anniversary Update bringing one-click installs for UWP apps. It doesn't have to be distributed through the Microsoft store. The only thing they'd have to be concerned about is Microsoft restricting consumer OS's to not be able to install anything from outside the store but that's not going to happen.
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Totally ^^^ , yeah man I am not concerned at all.
"restricting consumer OS's to not be able to install anything from outside the store" yeah there is no way they would ever do that cause every span of application(all industries) can/do behave that way so it cripple like everyone and they would kill their own OS.
Its all good :) -
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That's exactly what Apple does on the iPhone and iPad front. And it has brought them a lot of dollars.
That's what Android does with Play store as well. But on Android there's an option to override it, at least.
And we've read before Microsoft would love to do the same. This is not new and its not difficult to accept that it would be a dream come true for Microsoft.
Shackers now will say oh no it would never happen, but the fact is that inside people like GabeN said yes, there's a risk of that happening and we're ready to move to our own OS (sure it was all bluff). So why cant we accept that there's at least a bit of truth in what he was saying back then?
Unfortunately for MS, Windows 8 sucked balls and the store was shit.-
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there's a pretty critical difference between Windows and iOS/Android, namely that all those legacy PC apps are what's giving the PC basically all its value. Shutting them down makes little strategic sense. What sells someone on Windows today vs an iPad or a Chromebook? All those existing Win32 apps. Throwing those away is throwing away Windows biggest moat.
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There's no reason for things to live in the system tray any more. Multiple windows are possible. It would be interesting to solve how distribution of the games was done but I think it'd be possible, though all the games would have to move to UWP as well - which - in this apocalyptic scenario of removing Win32 support would have to happen anyway.
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Do you really need all of those icons sitting in your system tray and visible all the time? Otherwise you're hiding them behind the system tray expansion button at which point you might as well just pin them to the start menu.
Jump lists make any of the system tray click menus obsolete as well.
The only reason something like Steam would need to run constantly in the background would be something to do with updating. I'm not sure how to solve that, but that doesn't have anything to do with the system tray.
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It doesn't matter. The underlying point is that UWP is an open API that anyone can use. Your app doesn't have to be distributed through the Windows Store if it's a UWP app. You can absolutely host the appx and distribute it outside the store if you want.
IF Microsoft ever does away with Win32 there will always be an alternative to deploy applications to Windows PCs that doesn't require the store. If not, the shit storm they would endure would be grand and would probably result in them reversing the decision, or the downfall of the company.
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Sweeney may or may not be right but just so everyone realizes, this is why Valve is making SteamOS. No it's not that great yet. And no, it hasn't taken off yet. It may never take off. But, just in case Microsoft pulls some shit they have this alternate thing they've been working on while simultaneously encouraging everyone to make Linux versions of their games and engines.
Whenever you make something that has a dependency you're always beholden to that dependency. SteamOS is Valve's contingency in case they ever need to pull it out.
And yeah, theoretically Apple could do the same thing. Hence relying on the only feasible computer operating system for which they can have the source code.-
it's just strange for Sweeney to be going on about this now when he presumably should've had the same fear starting like 4+ years ago. On the other hand he's right to be more fearful in the sense that SteamOS is proving what everyone knew: no one wants such an alternative product. There is no real alternative to Windows for gaming, and 2016 is certainly not the time for someone else to come in and change that with the trendline in PC sales.
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Yeah it's strange.
Something I seem to recall with regards to the Windows RT fiasco - RT was sort of Microsoft's attempt to make Windows more like iOS on Apple devices - as in, you couldn't download and run programs off of the Internet or anywhere else, both because any executables you ran would be designed for x86 and not ARM but also because they locked it down to prevent anything that didn't go through the Windows Store from running, similar to how Apple prevents anything that didn't go through the App Store from running (I never ran RT so this is just what I remember reading, I may have some of it wrong). If they had not included the desktop interface and the ARM-compatible Office, it would have been very much like the OSX->iOS situation where it's the original OS under the hood but locked down with a different interface.
When they announced this some people pointed out that at one point in time Microsoft was actually banned from making such a system by the DOJ settlement. On closer inspection though the DOJ settlement only applied to Intel-based computers. But they could lock down non-Intel-based computers as much as they wanted. Hence RT running on ARM.
Of course no one liked RT and they killed it but in reading Sweeney's stuff I'm reminded of the thing where they can't lock down Intel-based PC's legally. So even though they might pull some dick moves with Win32, I think until they start making desktop and laptop PC's with non-x86 processors I think the disaster scenario can be avoided.
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Apple has a poor product but sell a lot of units through advertising.
Microsoft has a poor history of advertising so sell a lot of units through business support and gaming.
If Microsoft restrict software to their platform a lot of businesses and gamers will move to another OS. They know that gamers make PCs for family members so will lose between 1 and 5 sales per gamer lost, they also know that businesses will jump ship as soon as it costs more to run Windows than other OSes.
Microsoft isn't totally stupid. -
Remember, Sweeney also said that fixed function GPUs are gonna get replaced with software renderers (i.e. Larrabee) and that graphics APIs are gonna fade out:
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/09/gpu-sweeney-interview/ -
Such a paranoid, hypocritical liar this guys is: Epic publishes Infinity Blade on iOS, the most fascist walled garden there is, yet feels his made up concerns about a theoretical step-by-step crippling of Win32 is worth worrying about. Because Microsoft doesn't want applications for their OS.
Last three paragraphs here sum it up nicely:
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/ -
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