As the so-called "GamerGate" debacle has unfolded, we've considered whether, and how, to address it. We're a news site first and foremost, with recent expansion into more original feature content, but game culture has never been our focus. We're a community of gamers, especially as evidenced by our vocal Chatty community, and we certainly aim to appeal to our target audience. However, our site squarely focuses on games rather than gamers, and so we were never sure just how much engagement was necessary on our part.
(If you're not familiar with GamerGate, Gawker explains it well. Deadspin also covered the different factions of it in-depth, from a perspective outside the video game sphere.)
Just as GamerGate reached its first apex, though, it was delivered what I thought to be a crushing blow. Zoe Quinn, whose personal life had been the match that lit the firestorm, personally exposed the roots of the movement as bigoted trolls. Many of its broadest acts were part of a concerted effort to distract and defend their hate speech. The volume died down, and I thought it was over.
I was mistaken.
This belief had led me to ignore it entirely, even as the remaining GamerGate supporters celebrated minor victories. Recently they found that game journalists had been part of a social network, which they claimed as proof of collusion. This came alongside support from Brietbart, a well-known news source. Then they convinced Intel to pull ads from Gamasutra, following an opinion piece that criticized them. Intel quickly issued an apology, but retained its decision.
The continued momentum of GamerGate has convinced me that engagement is necessary, but not to expound on the virtues of game journalism or chastize the misogynistic elements. Most readers know, or at least should know, that game journalism isn't perfect and that issuing threats or gendered insults to women is never justified. Those subjects are well-worn.
Instead, I want to talk directly to the well-meaning people who honestly have concerns about journalistic ethics and want to improve game journalism as a whole. Your goals are noble, but you need a new flag.
You are building a house on a foundation of hatred, and it will never stand on its own until you start fresh.
I'm enough of an optimist to firmly believe that the well-meaning supporters outnumber the bigots by a wide margin. You probably believe that by sheer numbers, or volume, you can take this toxic foundation and turn it into a legitimate one. You cannot. You are building a house on a foundation of hatred, and it will never stand on its own until you start fresh.
It is easy to have our understanding of an ongoing event skewed by our own perceptions. Many who have joined the GamerGate cause may naturally feel that they are the founders and true gate-holders. By extension, they believe, those issuing ugly threats are fringe elements that have corrupted it. In truth, it is just the opposite. The ugliness is the original cause, and all of the outrage over journalistic ethics was brought up afterwards to act as a shield for bigots.
I know you believe in the cause, but that doesn't matter. Even if the cause itself is just, it's playing a role in a greater injustice. You are, likely unwittingly, helping to provide cover for people who want to threaten, demonize, harass, and frighten minority voices into silence--particularly women. They are using you to further a goal that you probably don't agree with.
A jilted lover found a way to get back at his ex-girlfriend, and he recruited gamers to help. He and a small group of misognynists cynically played upon an actual debate that's been boiling under the surface of video game culture for years: journalistic ethics. But for them, this was never about ethics. It was about tricking people into extending the life of their hate campaign by giving it a legitimate front. Rejecting the "GamerGate" banner does not mean abandoning concerns about journalism. It means freeing those concerns from a taint that makes them easy to dismiss.
You can't turn GamerGate legitimate. Any attempts to do so will only continue the smokescreen that is still allowing bigots to get away with death threats and hostility. You need to abandon them, leave them to fend for their own hate, and let the views espoused by a small group of cynical misogynists shrivel up on their own. Find a new banner that's based on inclusion, on welcoming more voices into gaming, on being unafraid of change. Then, continue asking journalists the hard questions. The very moment that one of the bigots from the old movement tries to join your new one, make sure he knows that his kind is not welcome. Not now, not ever.
To understand why the GamerGate label is beyond all hope, we only need to look at the events of last night. In the wake of a school shooting threat, one of the largest GamerGate hubs was gleefully fantasizing about murdering feminist commentator Anita Sarkeesian. The biggest problem in their eyes was the possibility that she'd become a martyr.
Forced to cancel my talk at USU after receiving death threats because police wouldn't take steps to prevent concealed firearms at the event.
— Feminist Frequency (@femfreq) October 15, 2014
Others, donning their tinfoil hats, speculated that someone opposed to them might carry out a murder to discredit and defame them. Different arms of the same group were simultaneously fantasizing about a murder and their own subsequent defense, just in case some unhinged reader actually did the unthinkable. Whether it's sincere death-wishing or a joke in poor taste doesn't matter. If you march to the beat of GG, these are your chief strategists.
Pragmatically, if you are genuinely concerned about journalistic ethics, that tag isn't doing you any good anymore. It's become so linked to the hatred that any moderate message you want to send is being obscured. Even ignoring its origins and current controversies, it's simply not an effective way to convey your desires to game publishers and journalistic outlets. The more clearheaded supporters of GamerGate need to ask themselves if the title is more important to them than the cause, because right now the one is strangling the other.
To be clear, I am absolutely not suggesting that you stop looking critically, even skeptically, at game journalism practices. In fact, I would be disappointed if you did. This industry is young, and making the sometimes painful transition between enthusiast press that borders on advertorial, and legitimate fact-finding, analysis, and critique. To do that successfully, we need the community to hold us to certain ethical standards. For that community to have any weight behind its words, though, it needs the moral certitude that can only come from rooting out its less desirable elements. You can only keep us honest if you can keep yourselves honest.
These steps aren't easy, but they're not meant to be. They are the only way to salvage a semblance of respectability, which is necessary for the discourse you want to have. If anything good is ever going to come out of GamerGate, it will be from those wise enough to extract themselves from it.
We’d love to hear what you think about this topic on Chatty, and we’ll be there engaging with the community as usual. We want to make sure we can set an example for a clear, respectful dialogue about a tough topic.
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Steve Watts posted a new article, Opinion: 'GamerGate' Legitimacy is an Illusion
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Can someone explain the logic behind NOT leaving gamergate and starting fresh with an actual ethics-focused tag/movement? All I've heard is that they're afraid that splitting onto a new tag will cause the whole thing to fall apart, but isn't even that worst case scenario better than being lumped in with misogynists and harassers?
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I think that in most cases, they'd probably be correct. When a tag has this much mindshare it would be silly, just from a PR perspective, to leave it behind. But a large and growing amount of that mindshare is being taken up by these really negative aspects, so it goes back to the falsehood of the old "all press is good press" adage.
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To be clear, I am absolutely not suggesting that you stop looking critically, even skeptically, at game journalism practices. In fact, I would be disappointed if you did. This industry is young, and making the sometimes painful transition between enthusiast press that borders on advertorial, and legitimate fact-finding, analysis, and critique. To do that successfully, we need the community to hold us to certain ethical standards. For that community to have any weight behind its words, though, it needs the moral certitude that can only come from rooting out its less desirable elements.
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By allowing themselves to be a part of the changing of the conversation (Which started as 'Hey guys, did you trade sex for reviews? Not cool') to 'All ya'll are misogynists!' they are making their stance clear. It is the internet, anyone can claim to be a part of 'GamersGate' (is that even a real organization? I wasn't aware they had a group homepage or some nonsense). So some random people claim to be a part of it and do awful things, and suddenly we can't actually talk about THE issue? You can say that oh, well, if you would just BEHAVE we could talk about real issues, but guaranteed the next time there is an issue, they will sweep it under the rug under the banner of protecting someone's frail frail feelings and call everyone raising any issue about gaming journalism some other name. Maybe racist next time, just to keep it varied.
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Just because you say something is true doesn't make it true. It started because someone traded sex for good reviews. You can keep saying that it didn't, but it did. Yes, the catalyst was a spurned lover (if the genders were reversed, would we automatically assume them in the wrong?), but it doesn't change the facts of the matter. Now were some of those things made up? Yes, but some were also true. Some like her actually sleeping with some (not all) of the said people and getting subsequent good reviews for a mediocore not-game. Like her shutting down a game-jam with false allegations of sexism because she didn't like it taking attention away from her own. And yes, then misogynists used it as an excuse to continue their ways, but that would be true regardless.
And they also try to act like it was Quinn alone who was nailed. Really? As if people didn't rally just as hard against the men who were accused of the favoritism?-
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He didn't review her game, no. He did cover the indie "game jam" or what ever the hell they called it, and put mention of her and her game at the top of the article, calling her/her game an "indie darling" or some such, leading attention to her. In fact he zapped her name in at least two articles. When the thing started to blow up, he first denied knowing her before his articles, and when that was proven to be false, told his editor that they had no romantic relationship prior to the article. It isn't required a relationship be romantic to taint the wall that should be held between a story and its subjects. At the same time, yes, relationships are things that journalists foster. Woodward & Bernstein managed what they did because of a relationship they had with a contact, one that they kept anonymous, and who did not benefit from the coverage. The relationship that Woodward & Bernstein had with Deep Throat is not an issue, because of the anonymity they maintained for protecting him as a source. An entirely different <ahem> affair than ZQ. It's also okay if Tom Brokaw has dinner with Dan Rather either, but it can be problematic if they share with one another what they plan to work on and their editorial views at that dinner table.
Anyway, this really, really is about a great deal more now than months ago, not the least of it being the sanitizing of discussion surrounding it. I can completely agree with the need for maintaining civility. But squelching an audience that notices things, never blows over well. As much wrong as may be perceived in other areas, in the least, this is most offensive to the most that I see.
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Sex was never traded for good reviews. Please read up on the facts, thanks.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=134397896&postcount=12285 -
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https://archive.org/
Google cache.
There are ways.-
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She had sex with two game industry insiders. This is known, this is admitted. She did this while still technically with her boyfriend, which is not really here or there, the moral failings of people isn't really my concern.
However, in any other field, we'd have a problem with someone sleeping with someone else who they are supposed to -cover- and -review-. Did they specifically review her games, those people? No. Did the websites they worked for? Yes. Nepotism is a bad thing, even if it is common.-
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I understand how this can all look cloak-and-dagger, but asserting *another* possibility without any evidence isn't exactly helping your case here.
Could one of those two journalists have given her a boost in the editorial room because of their relationships with her? Sure. But more likely, sites that cover indie games found an indie game that touched on an underutilized topic and thought it was interesting to write about. Occam's Razor comes into play here. -
So you're saying the entire publishing company was in on this nefarious wink-wink-nudge-nudge setup to get their games reporters laid? That seems really tenuous. Why do you think that's the case? Just because the review was positive? I can't believe anyone sensible would jump to that far-fetched of a conclusion so there's gotta be more to it than that.
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The Game Journalism is already too close to the things they report on, that is an ongoing problem. The whole system thrives on being paid off. People have been fired for giving poor reviews to sponsored games, sites have had their -privileges- revoked for review-copies because they wouldn't play ball. It isn't a giant conspiracy to get some guys laid, it is a normal-sized conspiracy to try and keep a good face when everyone is already fairly aware that game journalism is about as much journalism as infomercials are. Yes, the catalyst for the current uproar was one instance of a girl getting some dicks wet to get herself a better position in the industry, but the real complaint is about all of game journalism being built on cronyism.
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Well you haven't convinced me that one girl "slept her way to a good game review for a free game" but at least you're targeting actual corruption now instead of just ranting about someone's sex life.
What do you think of the stuff that's gone on at EA? Any comments for that? Any thoughts for how such conflicts could be addressed?-
EA? EA should be burnt to the ground. Companies get that big and corruption just becomes par for the course. I mean, their inside-beef with journalism aside, their business practices alone are abominable. How they keep business going when they are so blatantly moustache-twirling all the time is beyond me.
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See this is actually a big fish worth looking at. Assuming EA isn't going to just vanish into thin air, which specific practices do you think should be addressed first?
Should they be addressed internally or should there be an external review board of some kind. If we do go the latter route, what kind of individuals should make it up, and how do up I go about drafting a set of "integrity standards" for the industry?
Do you think there's a role to be played by gamers like us? Ideally, I think it would be a constructive one that amounts to something more concrete than yelling about stuff on the internet, but I'm interested in what kind of form it could take and whether/how it might interface with a 3rd party board of industry ethics.-
The most powerful voice in entertainment is money. Every other industry can be -bailed out- these days it seems, but entertainment still lives and dies by the dollar. If we could convince people to stop supporting EA and its practices (Feature-gutting for DLC, micro-transaction pushing even in full-scale games, the consuming and destruction of smaller and usually better studios, their inability to properly intergrate voices other than straight-white-male without it being pandering and patronizing) and stop buying their games, however tantalizing they might be at base level, eventually they'd have to change or die.
As for their internal business ethics, that is sadly something that no one can really -force- on them, considering they are based in the US and in the US rules only apply to you if you can't buy out of them.-
I don't know about that. Other industries have had their internal practices reformed over time by various means. Granted, it takes decades but if it's something we care about as gamers change can be effected.
The reason I brought up the concept of an external & independent ethical board is because the practice of law used to be far more internally corrupt than it is today (it's not like it's been completely cured, but it was much worse a few decades ago) and the Bar Association largely fills the role of a go-to center for ethical review. Now obviously there are some differences in that game dev doesn't require a license to practice, but that isn't to say that an independent organization where people can report ethical violations & have them investigated, maybe in a Better Business Bureau style, wouldn't ultimately influence the internal practices at large devs.
I'm kinda curious about your mention of micro-transactions in games, though. How do you figure that ties into internal ethical corruption in terms of the review/reporting of games?
Your point about not purchasing tempting titles until devs enforce ethical standards within their organizations is pretty salient. Are there any titles you plan to pass on (or have passed on) this year? What specific unethical actions motivated you to pass on them?-
I gave up on two games in particular with EA that had me very excited
Mass Effect 3 - Because of the excessive cut-content DLC and their ham-handed approaching at include gay characters that were just normal characters in gay-face. It was so poorly written (even excluding the homosexual romance) that it was insulting. They were obviously just pandering to a base. They had been doing that for some time, but it just came to a full tempo at Mass Effect 3
Sims 4 - I don't think I really need to elaborate on the sins of SimCity2013 and Sims 4
And I don't think micro-transactions are -corrupt- or -unethical- in the purest sense, but they speak of a disdain and a disrespect for the consumer.-
You weren't the only one upset at how characters were handled in ME3 and I think that's a totally legit gripe. But boycotting a product because the company did a poor job of representing minorities is a bit different from doing so because of ethical violations & conflicts of interest, and that's really the discussion I thought we were aiming for.
Micro-transactions are worrying in games not just because they're sometimes "hidden" or designed to trap clueless demographics like children into racking up large bills, but because I personally don't want it to become a standard game mechanic where I have to pay additional $$ beyond the purchase-price of a game to level (I might feel a bit different if the game is free). But that's really not about game journalism either unless someone is getting kickbacks to specifically not highlight that kind of feature in a review article.
To kinda shift gears a bit, there was a post farther down in this thread (god help me, I can't find it now, this thing is huge) about the casual way that indie game devs go about making the kinds of connections in their industry in order to get published and become successful. I tend to really like the creativity that comes out of smaller and indie devs and I want them to have the opportunities to network and put their products out there. But I'm not sure how you would simultaneously make sure those relationships are ethically sound. This isn't to mean that I don't think larger companies are the REAL problem when you're going to look at conflicts of interest, journalistic ethics, etc.. But if gamers want to continue seeing small & indie dev products and creativity coming into the market we have to make sure they're able to actually do so and aren't smothered by illegitimate or tenuous accusations of wrongdoing. So the question is how we should strike a balance between allowing small devs to network, ensure those relationships are kept ethical, and still allow them the resources to bring their games to market.
Really, I feel like there are 2 separate spheres of issues here that need addressing: the special and very difficult situation of allowing indie devs to exist and grow and put out products while still keeping them ethical, and the perhaps even more difficult situation of the large EA style devs who have the money and resources to blatantly buy and/or ignore ethical conflicts & conflicts of interest. I think the conversation about integrity in game development and journalism really needs to address each of these matters as two separate issues that require separate strategies.
In a larger context I just think the online conversation about all this is terribly suspicious when people yell loudly about journalism and integrity and then most of their issues center on a tiny indie dev and her free game and some unsubstantiated assertions of wrongdoing while saying little to nothing about the huge & blatant violations of large developers. Nobody's really talking about those, at all.
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Honestly I'm surprised you're not more worked up about the conflicts of interest that go on between the big game devs and games promoters. Those are even more blatant and wide-scale ethical violations than this one, assuming this one even happened. But this tenuous and relatively small-time alleged incident is the one you're ranting on about, not even providing evidence for your position and desperately jumping after snarky comebacks when others rationally ask you to support your claims. I hope you appreciate how weak and emotional that makes you look.
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I am thinking that the notion Nathan Grayson reviewed her game comes from folks who read about this in places other than the source. It's easier to say "he reviewed her game" than to say he did write two articles about indie games and mentioned her & her game in each. Being an indie game developer, exposure is important. Just being in the first caption of the piece colours what a reader will look for through the rest of the article. Anyway, he didn't review her game in the sense that you are thinking. He did call her name & game as a standout of the competition she was in. "SO?" I hear you ask, well... another pair of eyes aware of an indie game, yes even a free one, is certainly beneficial for her.
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That would seem to dispel the "trading sex" thing. I agree that mentioning indie developers with whom you have friendly relationships is tricky ground, but that's sort of how indie devs work. You don't have layers of PR managers to go through. You just show up at PAX and try out a game and suddenly you're speaking to one of the four people who made it.
Less barriers means more back-and-forth, which generally leads to a more casual kind of relationship. I've never been out drinking with an indie dev or anything, but my communications with them are definitely a more casual tone than when trying to talk to a PR person about talking to another person who's in charge of a team of 60 people.
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I can say with utter certainty that I have never traded sex for reviews, in case you were curious.
But as others have pointed out, the thesis of the piece is that GamerGate's foundations were based upon a jilted ex, so it was misogynistic from the start. Whatever actual concerns have popped up afterwards deserve to be heard, but they're getting drowned out by the misogyny. And that's not particularly surprising, because that's how it all started.
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Corrupt is probably too strong a word, but there are definitely a lot of things we can do to improve. I think that's a discussion worth having, but it's hard to have that moderate, reasonable discussion when a movement is so broad and poorly defined that clear-headed supporters are flying under the same flag as radical bigots.
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I don't have much to say about the content of the article but I just want to let you know I think it's awesome to see you guys taking a stand on the issue and letting your opinions known. Some outlets seem to be scared of approaching the issue, and this is definitely a thing that should be openly talked about.
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A little disappointed to see that the perception behind Gamergate is that the well-intentioned people supporting it are inheriting a mantle of hatred and discrimination, when it's the other way around. The idiots and moronic trolls are the ones appropriating the Gamergate movement to further their own stupid agenda, and also sad to say that the bigoted anti-GG critics have definitely used it as cover to make themselves professional victims so they can make themselves look better.
Gamergate has never been, is not, and never will be about the harassment of women in the industry, or a movement to keep diversity out of gaming. Anyone who has been paying close attention since day 1 could see that.-
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I don't see how it's corrupted. The SJWs and feminists like Anita focus on nothing but 'death threats' and the fringe elements(if they even are originally part of the GG movement because there have been alot of false flags) to illustrate to the more moderate people that the GG movement is misogynistic and evil. Drawing attention to those idiots just makes the issue seem bigger than it is.
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Its history is mentioned because that is where the movement started as covered at multiple sites like ars technica: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/ gawker, kotaku, Giantbomb, even Badass Digest got into it here: http://badassdigest.com/2014/08/26/video-games-misogyny-and-terrorism-a-guide-to-assholes/
That's why that is brought up, it's the history of the movement you are trying to defend.-
Every site you referenced has been 100% outspoken against Gamergate since day 1, I have no reason to put any stock in anything they have to say, especially considering what some of these writers have been calling Gamergate supporters on social media.
I was pretty much there since day 1, in every GG thread on /v/ and /pol/ that I could find. It was never about anything these people are saying it is. These people that write for these sites have just as much of an agenda as the idiots appropriating Gamergate do. Those sites are the very reason GG exists.-
Once again you bring up a motive fallacy as I noted to you previously. And worse, this time you make an argument from authority.
Neither of these refute the actual evidence that these articles provide for anyone to peruse. You've said you were there from the start, but I'm not seeing any evidence in this thread? And worse, that still does not contest with the point under discussion, that GG started with misogynist roots and has continued all while veiling behind a legitimate (and valid concern!) about integrity. Of which none of the actual evidence was ever mentioned, like Gamespot firing Jeff Gerstman.
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I like how a lot of sites, like Giantbomb, have banned using that term dismissively. Yesterday they released their new rules guidelines: http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/some-notes-on-the-new-community-rules-1496921/#129
Dismissive labeling: If you disagree with another poster’s opinion, politely respond to them and give them specifics as to why. Use of terms like “social justice warrior,” “MRA,” “neckbeard,” “hipster,” “weeabo” and any other pejorative label intended to disregard someone’s statement without actually engaging with it will be considered dismissive and your comment will likely be deleted. -
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lol. they wrote in the original IRC channel that gamergate came from about spreading false flag rumors so that folks like you would argue on your behalf. You got duped son.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/508190351190798337/photo/1 -
Anyone who uses the term SJW in a serious manner is a bad person. The WORST thing you could say about some supposed SJW is they would rather err on the side of being nice to people in general. Sure it can be coddling nanny state nonsense as well, but it's well meaning. People railing against this supposed SJW army are fighting to keep harassing women, calling people fags on Xbox Live, and being man cave dwelling babies. They bring NO redeeming argument of any value to the conversation. Period.
People do not have to humor bad people, or entertain some imaginary "all sides" to an argument. There can, and in this case is, a right and wrong side.
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I think it's difficult to say what a movement is "about" when it doesn't have a leader. It has no centralized voice to define what the movement is about, which is why extremist noise is so damaging to more moderate voices. By nature, the loudest voices become the defining trait of something that nebulous.
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Not you, but alot of the people who have spoken out against it early on were proven to all be in collusion and trying to steer the narrative.
I don't care who the movement is being condemned by. I don't let my opinion be dictated by something someone else says. I have the stance I do because I happened to be in one of the original Zoe Quinn threads on /v/ and I followed everything since then, even the stuff that I didn't agree with. I've made my own decision based on everything out there, that's all everyone needs to do instead of jumping on board with whatever some internet site says.
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Obviously that is not the case when you have women canceling public speaking events because of GG. You should take a step back from your personal point of view and really examine the facts. The Opinion piece spells out exactly the opposite of what you said. The Opinion piece of this site. The community you participate in is specifically saying "Why is the Emperor naked?", and you are saying "I never have been, currently am not, nor will I ever be naked"
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No you aren't advocating GG. I never said you were. Here is what you are doing:
"You're making this association without proof."
I'm making this association off of the actual context of the problem of GG. The fact that a woman is being harassed by a small group of under-cultured individuals because of her view of an industry that clings to it's narrow-minded tropes. That is the issue of GG. It is being said plainly in pretty much every thread I've seen today.
"I'm not advocating for GG here Peters. This isn't conspiracy level thinking. It's about attributing things reasonably. Demonizing GG for events that don't seem to be influenced by it are more like the actions of an angry mob than the actions of reasoned people."
The Opinion piece and the Deadspin article talk about this in detail. GG was demonized from the word go, period. The fact that it has now become an argument about journalistic integrity to defend the initial attack on Quinn is exactly the behavior of an Angry Mob that realized it isn't made up of Reasoned People.
The problem is that there is a minority of people who believe that this kind of behavior is acceptable. Not realizing that the other side is having this conversation amicably. They continue to push hard on this topic because you can do so very easily on the internet. If you want to talk about journalistic integrity then do so, just don't even bring up GG, because they are NOT the same thing.
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Sorry dude.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/status/508199211251142656/photo/1
The gamers gate hashtag was taken from an Adam Baldwin tweet by the dudes in the chan op IRC channel dedicated to ruining Zoe Quinn and *THEN* it was used later on when folks started saying it was just about journalism. Zoe Quinn had an account that no one knew about and sat in on the 'ops' against her just copying logs to the police. Thems just the facts.
Besides, was sitting on a train reading the 1st few tweets about this shit when it went down. The focus wasn't on the bad journalists for days, in the beginning it was GIRL SUCKS DICK FOR GAME REVIEWS. To this day, no one is talking about Geoff Keely and doritos halo cross marketing, they're only talking about girls in video games and 'social justice warrioring'. -
I have been paying attention since day one and its been harassment and threats from the start. I suspect you are a come-lately to the movement and now you're trying to distance yourselves from the unsavory and frankly indefensible parts of it but that ship has sailed. You're never going to convince me that this is about collusion between the games media and the publishers.
FWIW I agree that most games media is an extension of the Marketing departments at the game publishers but gamer gate doesn't have anything to do with that anymore. You need to abandon it.
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http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite
Except it isn't. There's been alot more collusion on the anti-GG side than anything else. And in this case it can't be explained away.
You should genuinely read into some of the things that have been coming out of the pro-GG side the past few months. I don't mean that in a condescending way. There's alot of interesting things that would give people pause.-
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I mean I delivered so fucking well on my last major project the project supervisor took me aside and told me if I was ever looking to move around he could find a nice engineering job for me at his company.
I smiled, told him thanks, I'm probably staying put for a while, and we parted ways.
This shit is EVVVVVERYWHEREEEEEEEEE-
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Even if I had taken the offer, during no point of the project did I compromise my current employer's standing to collude or "get" some kind of benefit.
Now imagine I'm a games journalist; laymen could come along and point at certain aspects of the project and invent a narrative that points to me colluding with the customer to get that benefit, despite a history of otherwise. Of course, that would involve a certain amount of revisionism, which I think is in play here.
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what gives fucking pause is mother fuckers threatening to shoot up a fucking audience.
who are these motherfuckers? I'm getting fucking pissed off at people hijacking underlying issues into their own grandstanding and attention whoring. they think Anita is the problem? they need to look in the fucking mirror. who is worried about Anita? now we have to worry about psychotic motherfuckers that are crossing a line.
everything is obfuscated and laundered through shit like 4chan. ok fine.
what isn't laundered is direct death threat language. how the fuck do things go this far? -
The mailing list isn't collusion. It's just a mailing list. Just like all of other "interesting things" the accusation is completely baseless.
It's been repeated again and again and again, there actually are many clear and obvious examples of questionable ethics and GG doesn't give any of them attention. Why? Because it involves games you like, as opposed to far fringe indie games made by women.-
So I guess the shitstorm Gamergate caused over the fact that 40,000 EA customer accounts were hacked then covered up because some journalists were friendly with people at EA is totally because some woman somewhere used some entry-level coding program to make a text-based Choose Your Own Adventure. Right.
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Firstly, "Gamergate is a hashtag, so its just as responsible for the things you said as it is for the death threats and/or abuse against female game developers, writers, journalists, etc. Nice try taking credit for something I don't believe you or your group had anything to do with. You're not all junior investigative journalists out to save us all from the evil corporations, you're just like the rest.
Your post reeks of misogyny and I am done reading you. Maybe stop posting.
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I have read that and none of it gives me any sign that the group was anything but a place where they could talk about their industry with other journalists. 1. It wasn't secret. 2. It's insane to think that they should have no contact with each other.
Journalists in every other medium will have some sort of relationship with each other. Hell, people in every industry do this. There are a couple impassioned voices but just because one person says something doesn't mean the rest will follow. Your smoking gun is a wet fart. -
Brought to us by writer that gave us classics like:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/10/13/Sorry-to-be-rude-but-little-Malala-Yousafzai-is-becoming-a-bit-of-a-bore
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/25/The-UN-s-risible-HeForShe-campaign-pointless-self-flagellation-for-sex-starved-beta-males
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/27/Muslim-gang-rapists-are-springing-up-everywhere-Why-can-t-we-be-honest-about-it
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/08/09/Here-s-one-female-IDF-veteran-s-saucy-solution-to-the-conflict-in-Gaza
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Also, that link to Zoe Quinn 'blowing' Gamergate open has been disproven multiple, multiple times. I'm a little disappointed to see Shacknews both referencing that article as if it were legitimate, AND offering Gawker's take on Gamergate, when Kotaku(one of the sites openly opposed to Gamergate) and Gawker are both subsidiaries of Vox Media.
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It is best to not fall for motive fallacies when replying here. Just because some sites may be owned by others does not make their points any less valid.
If you'd like further information on motive fallacies, read: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Appeal_to_motive
Address the issue at hand, don't try to ad hominem the speaker. -
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Pretty much. She cherrypicked snapshots of the log out of context. The 4chan posts were probably actual posts, but if you followed the course of the discussion over any of the threads, anything like that was immediately shouted down and told to fuck off. It's real easy to spin the narrative the way you want it to when you can go in and say these things anonymously. She's the SJW who cried wolf.
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And I read it. Nowhere did I see any screenshots of complete logs. I saw screenshots of partial chats and a biased summary written by someone who's been proven to have attempted to spin this story in a way that benefits him and the people he was colluding with:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/17/Exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite
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The only issue I have is you referencing the supposed talk that was cancelled because the "police wouldn't do pat-downs". If the police don't think the threat is credible, then why did she cancel the talk? Obviously cancelling the talk gets bigger headlines than police vetted the threat and found it not credible. I don't think we all know everything we need to about that particular incident.
There are lots of issues at play here, and all of them need to be looked at, but separately.
Are there some scummy practices going around between game publishers and content sites? Absolutely. Is that the norm? I'm not sure.
Are there a bunch of assholes on the Internet? Undoubtedly. But how do you police that while also allowing freedom of speech? How do you talk about charged topics (like this one) without it devolving into threats and name calling?
Is there a coordinated effort to call all gamers sexist and mysoginic? I don't know, but it sure seems like it when several sites run similar stories with the same vague fact-checking and reporting going on.
I'm glad you guys want us looking at this ourselves, but this really seems like nothing more than a click-bait piece and a rehashing of Fox News' old "We report, you decide" bologna.-
The issue, from what I understand, is that under Utah state law, they couldn't legally prevent anyone from entering the talk with a concealed weapon. All it would take is one lunatic. I've personally known people who can tell you that police may not think a threat is credible, but they often won't until something actually happens.
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She's entirely free to cancel her appearances for whatever reason she sees fit.
But obviously the authorities there didn't think this was a credible threat, and they were going to have security at the event. Believe it or not, there are probably people you encounter every day with a CCW that you don't even know that they have. Could they go crazy and shoot everyone up? Sure, but there are checks and things that are in place to keep that to as small of a risk as possible.
Could she slip on the soap in the shower and die? Yea, but I bet she still takes showers.
You can't dismiss me all you want, but I'm skeptical that she canceled this event because of a credible threat, and more because it was a favorable talking point that is now being spread around the Internet.-
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I'd level that directly against the mouthbreathers that are escalating to death threats. Not worried about what Anita is or isn't doing. What kind of a useless shitheel are we dealing with that would shoot up a school audience? cat is out of the bag on that one. Really marketable talents those folks must have.
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If what I've been saying has made you think I'm a dickbag, then you have the thinnest skin of any person alive. When I resort to the name-calling and dismissive attitudes that I've gotten in response to my posts, then you can call me a dickbag.
As far as the Breitbart link, I don't care about where it came from. I linked it because of the content. If you don't want to take anything it says into consideration as far as the topic at hand, that's your choice, but to criticize people who do is just narrow-minded and silly.-
You don't care when it's opinion agrees with you. You do seem to care when it doesn't - http://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=32592710
So which is it? Does the site's history actually matter as you said when I linked you to informative articles, or does it only matter when it doesn't agree with you, as you are saying directly here, defending Breitbart?
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Well it is helping her career. I don't know if she would prefer to have no death threats and have no one pay attention to her or have the death threats but be he go to person for commenting on sexism in games and the game industry. It is what she does for a living though right? Or does she do something else to make money?
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I don't know about you but I wouldn't want to take that chance if I were her and I think anyone who thinks less of her or thinks she's doing this for publicity is being naive.
She could DIE. She's just critiquing video games, for fuck sake, and she has to worry about people murdering her.
How is that even something to debate? Nothing about video games is important enough to ever worry "will I get shot if I say this" ever.
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Thanks mancide. I embedded Sarkeesian's tweet partly because she's in the thick of it, partly because it helped break up the wall-o-text. There's a lot we don't know about the threat, so I wasn't attempting to make any certain judgments of what happened there. What we do know is that she says that one of the people threatening her referenced GamerGate, and she voluntarily canceled it because she didn't feel the security measures went far enough. Anything else is developing.
As to your questions! Which thanks for actually asking some.
>>Are there some scummy practices going around between game publishers and content sites? Absolutely. Is that the norm? I'm not sure.
Having spent about 8 years in this industry, I would say that it's really not the norm. I've never been party to anything remotely resembling the crummy practices, nor have I personally seen it happening to any colleagues. I know it does happen, but it's rare, and I think a lot of people assume these isolated instances mean that they're just the ones we hear about and there's really rampant corruption under the surface. If that's true, I must not be on the list.
>>But how do you police that while also allowing freedom of speech?
I don't think we're in any danger of Congress making a law abridging the right of people to peacefully assemble.
>>Is there a coordinated effort to call all gamers sexist and mysoginic?
Not as far as I know. I will say that the "gamers are dead" articles that got people so up-in-arms felt to me like a silly thing to worry about. It's a common rhetorical device. I think people should be able to handle such a device being used to illustrate a point about the changing norms of a previously niche culture.
>>I'm glad you guys want us looking at this ourselves, but this really seems like nothing more than a click-bait piece
Everybody likes clicks, but when we're brainstorming content it really doesn't come up. We have the leeway to write about things that interest us or are on our minds. I wrote this because I honestly felt sad and a little guilty that game sites, the people in the best position to have a dialogue with readers about this issue, were being so quiet about it while bigger news outlets were doing our speaking for us.-
I know Congress isn't going to make a law about any of this. That's just silly. Like, I know here we could easily say talk like this is not allowed and people will get mad and a few might leave but otherwise the chatty will go on.
I'm sorry I used the charged term click-bait. I get you guys wanted to "voice your opinion" on the subject and not "let other sites do the talking for you" but what was your voice in this article? That this stuff is bad? It shouldn't happen?
What are you guys going to do to specifically address any legitimate concerns about relationships and who reviews what content? Are you guys going to come out and say, like GiantBomb did, we are friends with the guys making Bastion, so we'll not review it since we are going to do some content about it's development.-
>>what was your voice in this article? That this stuff is bad? It shouldn't happen?
The article's thesis is that the legitimate concerns about the industry are being drowned out because of their association with bigoted elements, so the moderates should strike out on their own. Make their own clubhouse, put up a big "No Bigots" sign, and keep right on doing what they're doing.
Currently we're not able to have a constructive dialogue, because we have two captains steering the GamerGate ship. One is trying to keep it on-course and the other is constantly yanking it towards the rocks. But you can't throw that captain overboard, because it was his ship to start with, so bail out yourself. Get your own ship and let him destroy himself.
>>What are you guys going to do to specifically address any legitimate concerns about relationships and who reviews what content?
We've actually been making an attempt to be as transparent as possible for the last few years. We always disclose when an event or review game was provided by the publisher.
As for friendly relationships like the one Giant Bomb has with SuperGiant, I don't think that's really in our DNA. I'm not buddy-buddy with any developers, on a personal level. I don't live near them, we don't go out drinking, etc. Giant Bomb has that kind of culture embedded in it, because it's all personality-focused and they invite devs onto their shows where they drink. That's a cool approach, but it isn't really our approach. And if we ever do become friendly on that level, we would of course be open about it. If it came to reassigning to a different staff member or farming it out to a freelancer, so be it.-
Then why not strike out a series of article talking about some of the legitimate concerns and how Shacknews or other sites are handling them. Good and bad. That would be a great series of content I'd love to read, and I'm sure many others would as well. A "line in the sand" so to speak. Here are things we think were legitimate complaints, and here is what we are going to do to never have these issues.
That's great you guys are going to be that honest and transparent if anything ever approaches a buddy-buddy level of a relationship. I know a lot of people look at certain things they do as the "gold standard" right now, but you are right their approach probably doesn't adapt to everyone equally.-
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Because gamergate isn't about those legitmate concerns. Because writing about those concerns while discussing gamergate lends credence to the "movement" or whatever you want to call it, giving further cover to the misogynists who have used it to sling abuse and threats at anyone they disagree with. Because the point of writing an article like this is to draw a line in the sand and then declare which side of it you are on.
You can debate the value of that and that's perfectly ok. No one made you read the article, and by reading it your life was not altered in any significant way. Stop talking like we're all on a slippery slope to the loss of free speech. this is a gaming website and a private business where you do not have freedom of speech. you don't have freedom from the consequences of speech either, so I'd be careful allying yourself with the (honorable) goals of Gamergate because I frankly don't believe anyone allied with that movement has anything to say that is worth listening to. You can thank your fellow travellers in the "movement" for that.-
I'm not aligning myself with any part of this, I've thought giving it any bit of attention was stupid from the get go. My whole point was, and I think he got this and somehow you didn't, was I he felt there were actual issues that needed deeper discussion, lets have that deeper discussion. Lets stop this echo chamber of half-assed articles and actually address any real points we think are there.
But no, instead we repeated the same old crap of some idiot made a threat against Anita and now we all can't have nice things. Should that threat have been made? No, and if you think I'm justifying that was ok then you are sadly mistaken. But there is nothing pointing to the fact that anyone was not taking the safety of that talk lightly. In fact, now we have a bunch of people here saying anyone with a CCW could shoot up a crowd. Well yea, someone could also bring a knife in there as well. The authorities had obviously looked into it and felt the event could continue. The article stated she's the one that called it off. Now what are the headlines circulating? Not police looks into threat and determines it wasn't credible.
That's the whole problem with this whole stupid thing. No one can offer a dissenting opinion because they get lumped in with a bunch of other scum they have no desire to associate with. I liked that they hadn't commented on this at all. I think the intent of this article was good, but the execution was poor, but after the conversation I had with Sporky I felt better about it.-
If you think any actual discussion about the issues that gamergate supposedly cares about can happen in an article about gamergate, I think you're mistaken. I agree there is a point worth looking at where games media and the publishers they cover are too cozy. Doritos and Mountain Dew shill man Geoff Keighley for example. But gamergaters don't talk about those issues, they talk about feminist writers and they talk about games journalists who disagree with them.
See the Devin article from badassdigest above for more about that.
The fact that you are still talking about Anita (while claiming that has nothing to do with the real problems gamergate has identified means you're part of the problem. Why should I care whether you believe the threat against her or her audience are real? Does someone have to die for you to take the threats seriously? Or are you implying they are all made up to get attention?
All of those are equally foul. -
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Whoa whoa. Let's clarify some terms here. "Calling for" the death of gamers means the writers were literally saying that gamers should be murdered.
They were using the term as an illustrative rhetorical device, stating that as the medium expands to a wider audience the niche culture around it is becoming less influential. Which is true. -
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Thanks. Looks to me like this was an attempt to dip her toes into the waters of YouTube critique. Doesn't look like she succeeded. If you're interested, you should read this:
http://anongamer.tumblr.com/-
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Because she's someone who influences the narrative that the journalists put out. All she has to do is scream 'Death threat!!' on Twitter and everyone drops what they're doing and is suddenly writing articles about how sexist gamers are. She cares nothing for reason or objectivity. She wants her beliefs put out there, no matter the method.
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So let's back up here a sec. I'll Devil's Advocate with you here. Are you really saying that she is making up the abuse and threats? That the hard hitting investigative team of Call of Duty players couldn't suss out the truth behind this and find out if any criminal complaints have been made? Or are you saying this did happen, but stupid jerk writers are "pretending" to oppose death threats for page hits? I'm not sure where you are trying to drag this point from and to....
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Im just gonna jump in here on a side note, but has anyone noticed that GamerGate essentially "Nickelback'd" Anita Sarkeesian in the video game news domain? We had years and years of reporting, concerns about publisher and media outlet collusion (The whole Gerstmann-Gamespot-Kane-and-Lynch thing, which got Eidos' forums bombed by some really filthy shit), and other stuff which predates her involvement in this area of gaming by YEARS.
GG did a pretty good job of immortalizing her.
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Not interested. i've read the mad ramblings on that tumblr before. Half a million views on a youtube video is a failure?
We weren't even talking about if it was a failure or success. My point was she was able to critique (and call it a failure if you want, but her videos have views) women in movies without death threats.-
That probably has something to do with the fact that critiquing the movie industry doesn't give her a visible platform like it does with gaming. Like I mentioned in another comment, she's made herself visible to the point where people fall all over themselves to write about whatever she speaks out about, whether it's true or not.
As far as the link goes, I wouldn't dismiss the entirely of the links provided within it as 'mad ramblings'. It's entirely plausible to assume that she's a front for pushing an agenda.
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I didn't say he thought that either and neither did squigiliwams. In fact, the quote you replied to is specifically accurate. Calling for the end of something and recognizing the end of something are completely different. The articles in question recognized the end of "gamers" as a group. They weren't calling for it.
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I saw an article about the talk she was supposed to give on the front of the NYT websites a long with another article about women being constantly harassed in he game industry and then asking for people to write in with their experiences. The more threats she gets the more famous she gets and the more eyeballs on these kinds of articles for or worse.
The only thing I know is it is a constant topic of discussion, the discussions are VERY popular, and articles and videos about the subject get A LOT of hits.
I suspect most people making content about these topics don't give a shit about helping anyone and just want to generate traffic.
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I don't read every post/thread, but it is evident that the new direction of Shacknews is to be more inclusive. Do you believe that Shacknews views these issues as something it needs to be proactive on (banning contextless porn, which I will admit I've totally posted here and will never do again because I understand the reasoning behind the ban), or will it let the community deal with the subject matter and then officially take a stand after a clear community consensus is made?
Thank you for making a statement at all on the Gamergate topic. I approve of this breakdown of bullying/harassment of females by a hateful few, and the error of taking up the of GG 'real' stance to confront the conflict of interests in gaming journalism-
Policies change over time. Nothing is static. What was acceptable 15 years ago may not be so much acceptable now and vice-versa. Gay marriage wasn't a thing 15 years ago. Nobody batted an eye at the name "Redskins" 15 years ago. And yes, the idea of addressing social issues through video games was barely relevant 15 years ago.
So as far as site policies, that's why we have a wonderful group of mods to collaborate with one another and discuss ideas critically, amongst themselves and amongst the community. Staff and Moderation is Shacknews' equivalent of Separation of Church and State. Rarely shall the twain ever meet. But that's not to say that we aren't all part of the same Shacknews and that we can't learn from one another. The goal is to help this community grow and make it welcoming to everyone, while still having a good time. We can do that together as a collective community.-
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Yeah. As EIC I'm not that involved in the day-to-day modding policies, but if anything came to making a major shift, I would make sure we involved the community. As it is, I trust the mods to know where the line needs to be to make sure this place is welcoming to newcomers while still keeping its raucous spirit. It just wouldn't be Chatty without some of that intact.
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Good to hear. I like the idea of a separation of "Church and State", and I think it would help to set an inviting tone to all if there were more Opinion pieces like this one. I felt like it did a great job of describing the view of the situation, and the opinion of Mr. Watts on the matter. It makes me feel more comfortable to know that it is a topic that Shacknews is willing to speak up about, but also in a manner that doesn't threaten the opposing views of readers.
Personally, I would like to see more. The Chatty is evidence that this site is more than just talk about games, and having real conversations about topics that are at least tangentially connected to gaming is intellectually stimulating to me.
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This all needs to take a pause. When some mouthbreathers threaten an entire audience with a mass shooting, the whole fucking thing needs to idle. I mean this is a record scratch moment. No more talk about 'cultivating culture' or whatever bullshit for a while. We have a NEW serious problem and discussion shouldn't continue until the NSA and FBI handle some shit.
We often talk about internet warning signs, well here are some pretty obvious fucking signs. Gamergate is losing all meaning, now that we have domestic terrorists at hand. Who the fuck are these people? It's not clever, snarky, tactical, or anything. You have no message at all other than threatening to commit mass homicide.
I still can't believe people are going beyond full retard on this. I hope Anita just lets this new narrative play out - gamers distancing themselves from complete shitheels that are openly saying they'll commit mass murder over this. This is surreal. What perceived threat is triggering these people to this level of panic?
I get there's still underlying issues. I'm not walking away from that discussion. However, everyone needs to chill the fuck out and let law enforcement arrest some folks. This is just surreal. Often I wouldn't side with Anita or the folks that want to say gamers are "over". There's a lot of condescending bullshit left to tackle. However, given this new situation, now I side with Anita. Everything is losing meaning because it's been corrupted by a psychotic minority.
it's time to deal with that psychotic minority now, and table the underlying matters.-
Good points, Downforce. The one thing I would say, which I said elsewhere, is that I don't think the "gamers are dead" articles were meant to be condescending. It's just a rhetorical device. A few days after those popped up, I think New York Times did "the death of the man" or something. It's a quick hook to illustrate changing social norms.
To the extent that journos can be catty and condescending sometimes, though, that's why I like this place. Chatty is such an active community that we get to be in the thick of it with you guys, instead of speaking from a gilded throne. It's more of a dialogue here.-
As a rhetorical device it is deeply flawed though. Shacknews is trying to be more inclusive, but I am guessing you realize that telling those older gamers that their taste is game is irrelevant now is telling your core market to go away.
I think that is essentially the issue with Leigh's piece (I didn't read many others). It decries a subset of a hobby (hardcore gamers) who are actually the only ones who would read her piece outside the industry. (Gamasutra is a weird mix of industry and not readership). That makes it befuddling.
Do games journalists want to be writing for only industry magazines?
Do they actually think that their writing is read by the "new" gamers?
This is all tangential to the Gamersgate stuff, but I think that the gamers are dead bit may actually show that games journalists are sick of their audience and believe they have bigger better things to report on. I am not sure who they think will read their "reporting" otherwise though.-
Goddammit. but I am guessing you realize that telling those older gamers that their taste is game is irrelevant now is telling your core market to go away is that really what you people think the problem is? REALLY????? Fucking really for real? No one gives any shit in any way at all that you like to play fucking Doom 2 or whatever on a 14"CRT. That isn't even remotely in any way at all related to what these articles are about. If you boil it down, and have any comprehension at all in any way, it's "People other than straight white men/boys wanna play too. Be nicer please." with a dash of "grow up".
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Game culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet.
It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. Queuing passionately for hours, at events around the world, to see the things that marketers want them to see. To find out whether they should buy things or not. They don’t know how to dress or behave. Television cameras pan across these listless queues, and often catch the expressions of people who don’t quite know why they themselves are standing there.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php
You can boil it down to something nice that you agree with, but this is what she said that became a point of outrage. She is probably right that as a demographic, hardcore gamers are less important now. Additionally she is right that game sites probably needed to start moderating and acting socially responsible.
She loses me entirely though in trying to proclaim that these people, the readership and the people who play the games that are oft criticized (Sarkeesian's video deals with Facebook games? Mobile games? Casual games? Nope.) So, hardcore gamers probably do still matter. No one else will read this stuff.
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It is embarrassing as a grown ass man. That still has nothing to say about what games are being played by who, that specific quote is a critique of a moniker taken on by a subset of people based almost entirely on consuming product and simultaneously shunning any new aspects of it opening up. The machine needs to be fed money, and straight white boys are no longer the sole source of it.
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Hm, I think there's a difference between telling older (or male, or white, or whatever) gamers that their tastes are "irrelevant," and being honest about changing market realities regarding video games. The hardcore subset isn't going anywhere, but it's less influential than it was before, because the hobby is growing.
As we welcome a greater variety of voices into the hobby, maybe some of them will get into the so-called "hardcore" subset too. Most won't, but that's okay. This isn't a zero-sum game where they have to lose so we win.-
I agree generally, gaming is more mainstream and more inclusive. Gaming sites should be more inclusive. But to say it is less influential in games journalism? That is where I would like to see more analysis.
After a TI4 where DOTA 2 was on ESPN in the U.S., many sites I visit have permanent DOTA 2 columns now. That is something going mainstream and still being driven by the hardcore element though as TI4 was diverse, but still very much populated by the people described at the top of Leigh's article.
Hardcore gamers may be less influential in the market at large, but the hardcore market has expanded and it is still the home of games journalism.
Like I said, I am all for more moderation and inclusiveness. This just seems like wishful thinking that the indie scene and those elements these journalists are invovled in are more important than they actually are. EA, Blizzard, Valve, and Activision are probably not writing off the "It’s young men queuing with plush mushroom hats and backpacks and jutting promo poster rolls. " Any time soon and they will probably be giving interviews to the sites that gather the most of that type of gamer readership.
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Ajax are you a fan of the "good ole days"?
http://youtu.be/am9BqZ6eA5c-
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I imagine Drake doing that thing that the really scared/shook dudes do in mobster movies when they're brought before the boss but don't have the sack to look him in the eye. They're just staring at the floor, wringing their hands and hoping beyond hope that they get a pass. Then Terminator X walks up from the side and puts a 40 cal on his temple and Drake starts screaming like he's in church.
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The ESA have taken a stand as well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/10/15/the-game-industrys-top-trade-group-just-spoke-out-against-gamergate/ -
I'm glad Shacknews isn't pretending like both sides of this 'argument' merit serious reflection. I mentioned it the other day on the /r/shacknews, but #gamergate is a opportunistic spin on what was at first an absolutely horrid personal attack by an internet army on a single female developer, for highly dubious reasons.
There is no investigation, it is a witch hunt.
There is absolutely no smoking gun that confirms any kind of serious ethics breach. Every 'proof' is unsubstantiated, based on spurious assumptions, or relates back to incidents from 2011-2012 involving negligible financial stakes - when the 'indie' game industry was a small-time business growing in fits and spurts, learning as it goes.
Gamergate advocates don't seem to understand how adults, professionals, or press work. They are angry at journalists but completely ignore how companies like EA and Ubisoft spend millions and millions on influencing the press. There's outrage about Fez winning an award a few years ago, but not about the Call of Duty series scoring 90% every year while IGN sells tons of banner space to Activision.
When, as a response to the 'end of the traditional gamer demographic' articles, #gamergate claimed conspiracy on behalf of gaming journalism to divert attention away from ethics abuses to false misogyny, it's almost disheartening to me because it shows how deluded this 'movement' is. -
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My kidding aside, Ozzie is right. We don't plan on pestering people with constant GamerGate news updates or anything. (Ideally, this would be because the movement fizzles soon and we don't have to.)
This just seemed like the time that something needed to be said, and more importantly, gaming sites needed to be the ones saying it. It's frankly shameful that places like the BBC beat us to the punch.
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I usually still read whatever comment I'm already reading, bit the moment I see the usage of SJW as a pejorative, I'm like
https://31.media.tumblr.com/96cbe8991e0bfd523891d7f88178e392/tumblr_n93h0zrg8D1ta5iimo2_250.gif
...because it's a term that comes from a fundamentally broken perspective. At best, they're implying that the people who care about doing the right thing are actually lying, and don't care at all. An accusation that doesn't come with proof, just their own blind assertions. It also comes with a personal admission to apathy. Overall, a pretty shitty stance to take.
And at worst, they're saying people who care about something as universally good as justice are somehow wrong for caring about doing the right thing. It's like when the bitter villain in a movie mocks normal people for caring about others. It's clearly, cartoonishly evil and these guys are actually proud to be that guy.
So like I said, I still read what they have to say. But they make it real easy; how could I ever take their opinion as something meriting serious debate? Anyone who uses SJW as a pejorative is a joke.-
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justice is great, and a lot of change needs to happen. What I don't like seeing is a group that is entirely beyond any reproach, to the point that if someone expresses a problem with anything they do he must be complete scum.
Personally I don't have a problem with their goals. But often the language used rubs me the wrong way. Like "rape culture". I think I understand what it means pretty well (that Film Crit Hulk article laid it out nicely: http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/we-need-to-change-how-we-talk-about-rape/ ). The ideas behind it are sound. But I still fucking hate the term and the way it seems to paint every single male. I hate how stating that will just be batted back with a reflexive sarcastic #notallmen.
Words mean something, and I think I should be able to give my opinion that they've chosen some bad ones to sum up the issue (a good, real one). Obviously nothing is stopping me from doing so, but it's a minefield. Right now there's probably someone reading who is certain that I must be a fan of the status quo who wants to make rape jokes all the time, when I just don't like the term "rape culture". It's been weaponized ( http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html ), and as a privileged white male it's impossible to take part in any discussion without prostrating myself.
Now that's a better situation for me than being oppressed, for sure. Also #whataboutthemenz? I guess I am saying my problem with some of the social justice types is that it's impossible to talk to them, to the point they hurt their own cause. One of my family members is pretty heavily into all that (and good for her; good causes) but I've seen her offend a ton of well meaning people who've then unfriended her on FB. It's counter productive IMHO. If I were to use the term SJW pejoratively, it would be to describe someone who is impossible to talk to.
But at the moment I'd be far more likely to use the term GG pejoratively. Some absolute jerks in there.
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Wait. Waitwaitwaitwaitwait. The only reason you signed up is so that you could express disapprove and then thanks.txt? Do I have that right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yInw8LyWTN8
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There are definitely ethical concerns in gaming. Here is GamerGate's antichrist, Leigh Alexander, with a partial list:
http://leighalexander.net/list-of-ethical-concerns-in-video-games-partial/ -
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I remember reading in my local games magazine once how they went to a BF1942 event on an aircraft carrier with actual WW2 veterans present, one of the guys was told by a veteran "you guys play this here, we did it over there" and the reporter didn't enjoy it much anymore.
Another I remember was partying with Dave Perry and getting wasted on absinthe.
At least it was funny to read about this stuff because they always wrote the whole thing out like a trip report.
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Yeah, that's not the debate. I think pretty well every moderately active gamer can attest to scratching their heads at some previews and reviews. No question about that. The issue here is that hiding behind that veneer is an active and aggressive anti-woman, anti-progressive stance on anything involving videogames. No matter how many women they get to do interviews.
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@RedLianaK tweets about an instance of "#GamerGate trying to find Anita's stalker
@SocialismNever threatens @RedLianaK to make the point what's "good for the goose" is good for the gander. meaning if #GamerGate is going to threaten women that share their opinions, then "ooh look how bad it feels when it gets done to you!" dumb.
@RedLianaK then reacts to the threat by taking a screetshot and tweeting that she was threatened
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Well again I can really only speak for ourselves. I've never bumped a score or cave for been taken to a bar, titty or otherwise. I'm RELATIVELY certain no one else on staff has either, but it's not as if I can speak for them and I've only been EIC for a couple of weeks.
That kind of thing certainly does happen, and it's worth talking about and exposing. I think there's a real opportunity here to make something positive of this mess. The people who are genuinely concerned about ethics can push for more transparency, maybe even a more codified set of standards. And they can do it while distancing themselves from the ugliness. -
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This thread : http://i.imgur.com/e3YKeZX.gif
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I think this is the point:
http://d2tq98mqfjyz2l.cloudfront.net/image_cache/132004368377838.jpg
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tl;dr I have no fucking clue what GG is about and I have no intention of figuring it out because the term is just so toxic to even touch with a 50 ft pole.
This is going to be a hit and run post, as I plan to collapse this thread (just like the other GG thread) as soon as I type this up, but I feel that a good portion of the community is just sick of this entire debacle and just want it gone. Looking through the thread real quick, the people who continue to "debate" this issue are those who have been going at it in nearly all the other early threads. Very rarely do I see anyone else participate. I mean, there isn't anything wrong with talking about the issue, I'm all for that. But we already have. Again. And again. And again. It feels like every single time this gets brought up, people just continue to regurgitate the same things over and over again. Theres a reason why all the other GG threads are marked tangent (and now I'm actually very thankful that it is)
And I get it, death threats are lame and people shouldn't be doing that. But does the shack community encourage this? Not really. Even before information came to light regarding the nature of some people to manipulate the truth, we talked crap about anna something and how fucked up some reviewers mixed business with pleasure. But no where did we actually make threats, especially once it came to light how people are manipulating the truth.
Is GG about "corrupt" reviewers then? If it is, its not like the people here can do anything about it. Obviously, if someone really wants to help their friend by giving them a good review for their game, then that’s going to happen regardless of what the community says. The only thing we as a community can do is notice it when it happens and yell bullshit (just not as long as this).
Then is GG about female character portrayal in video games then? Again, its not like the community can do anything about it. If game developers want to portray women in scantly clad clothes then they will. If not, then they wont. The only thing the gaming community can do about it is to just vote with their wallet and not buy it (I guess you can also yell #GG at game devs and publishers to get them to change their portrayal of women in games). All I know is that generally most of the developers on the shack aren't for portraying women sexually and kudos to them (unless they are, in which case kudos anyways).
I'm pretty sure at this point the message of GG has been changed and altered several times that its about neither of the issues I've listed above. I honestly have no fucking clue and I have no intention of figuring it out. The very nature of GG is just so toxic and disgusting that I refuse to have anything to do with it. Whether its discussing equal rights for women in the gaming industry, or the non sexual portrayal of women in games, just say it for what it is and stop calling it a part of GG. Equal rights for women in gaming industry. Non sexual portrayal of women in games. -
I love how this whole thing comes up at a time when game reviews are arguably less important than ever. There are so many options to determine if you will like a game or not beyond reviews. Videos, let's plays, podcasts all kinds. So why is it so important now? Because apparently a woman slept with someone. Good call. Keep it up Internet.
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I really really don't care about games journalism. I read very little anyways, I watch a few trailers and generally wait for actual community members to play a game and proclaim it awesome. I never exactly felt like it was reliable anyways. At best it was entertaining.
You know what I do care about? People getting bullied. That shit is serious business, and there is never an excuse good enough for people to get bullied the way a few of these people are getting bullied. I feel sick to my stomach about how Anita and Zoe (and older controversies like Kathy Sierra) have been treated, and continue to be treated. I do not care what they did, nothing deserves this kind of behavior.
I would gladly see games journalism get 100000x worse, if it meant that people didn't harass the people involved. :(
Shame on anyone who thinks games journalism is important enough to ruin lives over. -
You're right that formal written reviews have been somewhat sidelined by other content types. I'm a writer first and foremost, but I like to think we're adapting to the new media, especially under the new ownership. Those have their own ethical concerns to deal with, because publishers are starting to find they can side-step media altogether and go directly to the streamers.
The media is young and has its problems, but on the whole I think we tend to be more experienced with ethical quandaries than a fair share of streamers. That's not to say streamers are corrupt or anything, but even young publications tend to have ethical guidebooks written up for internal use. That's not something all that common for a guy who just streams out of his house, so it comes down to trusting him to do the right thing and tell you when a compromise comes up.
This sort of thing can lead to confusion as well. I remember seeing people who were confused about the Shadow of Mordor streaming notes, and claimed that reviewers had to sign a document promising it favorable coverage to get our review copies. As the reviewer for Mordor, uh, no. That did not happen.
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Steve, I enjoyed reading this article. I think that you have articulated well that appreciating the origins of the controversy is important because the value of future discussions regarding game journalism are unfortunately marred by a vocal minority of gamers with a agenda to maintain the status quo.
I have no doubt that now that this issue has been raised, readers of video game news sites will perhaps take a more critical eye and perhaps would like more disclosure about any conflicts of interest. As you stated, the appropriate response is for websites to take this criticism seriously and address the concerns of their target audience.
What is unfortunate however, is this pivot that unfortunately sabotages a frank discussion on how to moderate our own community. I think the majority of gamers don't approve of the hostile behavior and vitriol that has been directed at the women who have involved in gamergate, but somehow there isn't a consistent response from the community that has continued to discourage these voices given the distractions. Although your idea of disconnecting the two may help, in the end members of the gaming community need to continually step up and make it clear that these behaviors are intolerable and not representative of pretty much any rational human being. -
Devin nails it: http://badassdigest.com/2014/10/15/why-gamergate-already-lost/
His points on GG's total lack of consistency, in light of Youtube payola, say everything.-
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I don't post, but it seems like there are fine boards: http://boards.4chan.org/v/ Seems to be nearly entirely video game discussion, along with a lot of images.
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I made a mistake and read the comments before reading the article. I figured that those defending Gamergate had a leg to stand on, but this was a perfectly reasoned article that can be boiled down to two key points.
-The Gamergate tag is completely toxic and has nothing to do with journalism ethics and everything to do with misogyny.
-It is important to keep games journalists ethical, and those that truly want to be the guardians of ethics need to create a new tag.
How are people finding fault in this article?!
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I am starting to think the problem is partially a lack of reading comprehension. Like, we're in Idiocracy for real now, and people don't understand how to talk to each other and debate any more, its just stupid red team/blue team bullshit. Rhetorical devices go over their heads...writers using a turn of phrase are taken completely out of context and misunderstood, and context itself is irrelevant, because everyone is playing ideological bingo. I think boring_gegtik posted an article about this a month or two back.
Morons on both sides are equally as incapable of making an argument, or more importantly understanding the position of those they are arguing against. The Gamergate people think they are fighting for ethics in journalism, but they fail to see they are trying to mash journalistic standards into a marketing machine that has existed almost as long as the Web. It's understandable that they don't want collusion between journalists and game publishers, but then they get lost in the weeds trying to explain some silly conspiracy theory that includes Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkeesian, Brianna Wu, or any other woman brave enough to have an opinion and share it (or those brave/stupid enough to defend them).
The worst problem is the persecution complex that just makes people think they are right the more they see people disagreeing with them. They love to feel like they are righteously angry (because it feels good) and it only hardens their resolve and makes them double down on their stupid opinions. It's a vicious cycle and its present in almost every aspect of our lives now, from video games to politics. It's fucking depressing.-
Here is the article that I mentioned:
http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html
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I have a question semi related. Is there a shacknews publicly posted ethics statement ? I don't ask because I doubt the ethics of any of the writers here; I just think have a rules of engagement that is SOP is a good thing for any site that does reviews and takes advertising revenue and/or gets paid to travel on behalf of a review, game or tech or whatever. Would be a good thing to share with the community.
And for the record, I have never had issues with any article or writer here on trust or worries about ethics.-
I think that's an excellent question, john, and exactly the sort of constructive thing that we might be able to salvage out of this mess.
We certainly have guidelines that all of us on the staff know and follow, but I don't believe they've been formalized or published. Mancide (above) suggested addressing specific questions from the community about our ethical stands, and that might be a good tool to start articulating our policies into a published statement.-
so I, being in sales at a tech consulting firm, have to deal with ethics regs of my customers all the time. For instance, I have a customer where I can not give them any direct gift or spent more than 100 dollars a day on them. Think dinners and wine and dine and all that. When I am told this, I ask for their ethics policies and I share them with my team who work the account.
I just think having published ethic standards - and a way to report an ethics question or potential violation - with a published overview of our issue handling policy - takes a lot of this off the table. If someone has an issue, they can see how you are measured, how to report it, and how it will be handled. I realize that might increase the HR/compliance side of shacknews - but given all of this stuff - it might be the best way to set the writers here apart of the rest of the industry.
I don't expect the SN team to buy every game they review. I realize you are going to get shit for free. You are going to be paid cost to travel to somewhere to review a game. I am good with that - just disclose it in a review. something on the bottom in italics .... "the game copy of this review was provided for free by the publisher" would be a great addition to articles. -
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Gamersgate is a bunch of guys who are mad that a girl had sex with someone that wasn't them. The inevitable end of the 'white knight' mentality. Bitterness that pretending to be a good guy isn't going to get you laid even if she also likes games, and that all games are no longer solely focused on males. So death threats from the impotent 4chan idiots fly because it's the only way anyone will pay attention to them.
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I am still trying to figure out why so many people are picking this as the hill to die on. You can want more transparency and less payola in game reporting without carrying around the baggage of all the asshats. As the root article pointed out. It's like they are stubborn teenagers with persecution complexes.
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this dude said he was leaving almost three months ago
http://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=32206285
wonder if he means it this time
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I wasn't ever in it, but I'm kind of disappointed that I wasn't. I apparently could have joined if I'd asked, but I didn't know it existed until all this blew up. I'm told it was mostly silliness and cute cat gifs, which are relevant to my interests. I think they're either holding off on inviting new members or shutting it down entirely, but either way, I'll have to make my own cute cat gif group.
I am on a Facebook group of freelance journos, though. That's pretty fun.
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I see GamerGate as the gaming equivalent of Benghazi---something that may have been relevant and very unfortunate, but now should be just dropped from discussion. It's been long enough. Intel fanned the flames, sure, but I don't see any new discoveries or new things to say. Yet it just keeps coming back, with new attempts to create a scandal.
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Ethics! No, wait, game reviewers representing us!
https://twitter.com/PixieJenni/status/522486272305410049 -
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I totally get where you're coming from. And I don't rant often but I'm going to rant now, so I apologize in advance for my very unfiltered opinion. It's not directed at you or anything, this just happens to be where I felt like sharing, since, as said above, I get where you're coming from. And after I post this, I'm going to watch tv because the entire thing has taken up too much of my time already. So, here goes.
...
I was actually pretty interested in this thing when I first heard there was a scandal/misconduct, because who the hell wouldn't be? It has all the juicy stuff: sex, games, accusations of wrongdoing...
Then it turned out the scandal was a misreporting, and I was all "oh, so the people who're still worked up about this are probably the folks who believe a facebook rumor and run with it, and then keep arguing even after the real evidence comes out. Well, whatever." But people were still up in arms about it so I thought "maybe there's more to it??"
But after ample, ample opportunities nobody has posted a single goddamn piece of evidence against this woman that wasn't a pathetic grasping at straws. Oh, she slept with someone who works at an organization that once published something nice about a game she gives away for free, but she might tangentially have benefited because now people have heard of her! Well whose fucking fault is that, you geniuses? And is that really all you've got?
If this were a lawsuit and my opposition had evidence that flimsy, I'd have a summary judgment in my hands in 30 minutes. I wouldn't even charge my clients for it.
If this were a scientific paper and someone brought it to me for review, I'd give it back and tell them to knit baby clothes for a living - anything that doesn't require critical thought.
There's more evidence out there for God, and I haven't bought that story either.
https://catmacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/alphabet_soup_cat2.jpg?w=720
And they sure as shit aren't talking about actual, substantiated incidents where shady things have gone on at the big studios. Ohhhh no! We have to continue crying about some pea-sized dev whom we can't even prove did anything wrong. And we have to "take a stand" against sites that call us out on the fact that our accusations are bunk. It's the same song and dance even when they get a platform to talk about their "real concerns," as for instance right here in this thread. So now I don't even believe their actual motivations are what they claim.
So I'm done listening to both sides. I started out interested and curious. Gamergate folks had a chance to prove their claims and they failed because they didn't have shit and now they're just screaming and pouting because admitting they're wrong about Sarkeesian is too big a task for them. If anyone isn't adult enough to see how transparent that is, how the gamergate arguments and the evidence they're based on is about as solid as wet tissue, then those folks can gtfo and go hang with their intellectually challenged peers.
I'm moving on to something that's not a total waste of my time, like watching Lilyhammer and browsing cat macros. Cat macros are entertaining.
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Is a fine rant though. One of the things I do find crazy about gamer gate is why feminist frequency got thrown into that mix in the first place. I've never heard her even mention Zoe Quinn or journalist collusion (I could be wrong).
It just shows that a big part of gamer gate did have a anti women / anti feminist agenda and that should be enough for normal sane people to distance themselves from it. -
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I think one of the reasons gamer gate has taken a long time to go away is because it does resonate with a lot of peoples feelings on feminism and the perceived censorship or thought police aspect of it.
Somehow they think that they're being told that they're not allowed to like the games they used to like or they think that those games are being censored by places like feminist frequency.
And at the same time they're being told that they're not allowed to agree with any of the gamer gate issues.
However they need to understand that places like feminist frequency don't have any power to censor anything. It's just a view point and while it happens that it does seem like a lot of developers agree with it.
You're still going to see games like Bayonetta 2, but also we're hopefully going to see more adult and represented games as well.
Somehow "modern feminism" is still getting blamed to a degree for all this or resented however I don't recall there being any death threats on that side. In fact most of the main victims of gamer gate has behaved amazingly dignified and with a great degree of courage.
Gamer gate has become toxic and people do need to move on from it. If you still have an opinion on journalist collusion or on perceived feminist censorship then discuss that but don't link yourself with gamer gate and death threats and hatred for women.
(sorry that was long and probably won't be read by anyone).-
"Somehow they think that they're being told that they're not allowed to like the games they used to like"
While it's not been said outright, it's implied that you're backwards if you're not in step with the new 'progressive' trends. Hence the whole 'death of the gamer identity' surge weeks back.
"However they need to understand that places like feminist frequency don't have any power to censor anything. It's just a view point and while it happens that it does seem like a lot of developers agree with it."
Wrong. If you disagree with them in the slightest, you get bullied and badgered into apologizing for being a sexist piece of shit. This is the Internet. People aren't here to just passively put their views out there and hope they gain an audience. They'll do whatever it takes to give themselves as much visibility and exposure as possible. All it took for Anita to be made a consultant on Mirror's Edge 2 was complain that EA didn't make the game accessible enough to women(whatever that means). Developers 'agree' with it because they don't want the stigma of being called misogynists.
"Somehow "modern feminism" is still getting blamed to a degree"
Because 'modern feminism' is women complaining on the internet about mean things being said. Real feminists, like Christina Sommers(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers), think 'modern feminism is a joke.
"however I don't recall there being any death threats on that side"
No, they just dox and bully anyone who doesn't agree with them. They even doxxed a 10 year old kid on Twitter. It's the whole reason The Fine Young Capitalists were initially shut down. It's why gamers were called worse than ISIS. There may not have been death threats, but there is still a very real attitude of hate towards anyone who is neutral or disagrees.
"In fact most of the main victims of gamer gate has behaved amazingly dignified and with a great degree of courage. "
What victims specifically?-
Appreciate you responding to my points. However I think your responses have backed up my initial point. Gamer gate originally was never about feminist frequency or women in gaming.
It was about journalist collusion but it very quickly transferred over to Feminist Frequency and women in general.
Why? Because people like you thought we were taking your toys away and you jumped on the gamer gate bandwagon and hijacked it so it's no longer about journalism and collusion.
I do find a lot of the female tropes in gaming distasteful I do want them to become less prevalent. However I still believe in freedom of expression and if developers want to release games like Bayonetta then fine, but I and places like Feminist Frequency will still point out things they dislike about those games.
They should be able to do that without receiving death threats. Those are the victims by the way the ones receiving very personal and specific death threats. Having to leave their homes because of those threats etc.
Also feminism vs modern feminism, isn't she the woman that defended the pay gap? -
Sommers is a right leaning conservative that thinks "traditional" family values and gender norms are the way to go. Views like: Women should be docile and subservient to men, raising the children and housework is the woman's job, men should never show emotion, boys shouldn't show interest in poetry/ballet/other "girly" things, female sexuality is evil and should be suppressed, its the female's fault if she is raped/assaulted/harassed, gays are icky, etc. Since she is very well off she or her family would not feel the impact of her regressive views like middle class or poorer women would. For example, like has always been the case the wealthy can afford, aka bribe, to have an abortion performed under the table at a hospital but everyone else has to go to some guy's garage is a shady neighborhood.
Modern feminism realizes that much of the overt sexism and misogyny has been dealt with but the underlying social, political, cultural, and economic discrimination remains. This is much like those fighting for racial equality; overt racism like the Klu Klux Klan is universally reviled but our society is still designed to prevent minorities from gaining any real power. The struggle to overcome these hidden barriers will require great changes in our world which is what really scares those in power. Yeah there are some actual "man haters" out there but those of us on the left tend to just ignore them and their crazed ranting. The opposite of how the right is controlled but its far out fringe.
I have no idea why she considers herself a Democrat when her opinions are straight out of the Republican handbook.-
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Looking at her Wiki profile and the organizations she is apart of she is very much a conservative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers
Her main job is listed as being a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute AKA the people behind a good portion of Bush Jr.'s policies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Enterprise_Institute
And the Independent Women's Forum is where the "wage gap is because women are needy" thing comes from amongst other gems. "A New York Times editorial described the IWF as "a right-wing public policy group that provides pseudofeminist support for extreme positions that are in fact dangerous to women.""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Women%27s_Forum
FIRE? Sommers is just mentioned as being on the board of advisors so who knows how much she actually participates in anything. (likely just to make sure the group defends conservative causes as well)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_for_Individual_Rights_in_Education
So I would say she is fairly in the conservative camp.
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Can you specify what modern feminism you see as this? Because this situation has made it clear that the abuse of women online and plenty of other situations and statistics show how women are treated worse in real life too. Like even if there are a few voices you don't like, the idea of feminism is still pretty ok, so how can you ignore that?
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Leigh Alexander is a gamergator? http://leighalexander.net/list-of-ethical-concerns-in-video-games-partial/
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Yeah it really sucks. Issues of misogyny and sexism, even if it doesn't have anything to do with videogames, get lumped into this bullshit too. We should be having an open and frank discussion about it at every opportunity. It is a major problem on the internet and just a reflection of how backward a lot of thinking is still prevalent in the world.
It is also unfortunate that not many outlets are willing to police their own industry. A Gamespot writer hosting a publisher event for example should be something criticized widely, but outside of one blog post I saw no one talking about it. Doesn't that imply approval from game journalist at large? -
You bring it up by talking about it like an adult. You list your evidence, provide your point of view on that, and discuss it. That's how you discuss corruption. For example, pointing out that the World of Draynor trailer was introduced by a GameSpot reviewer at an official Blizzard event and ask why that's okay.
What you don't do is use a hashtag set up to harass females and supporters of the feminism discussion. -
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The article just states the obvious. Don't use the Gamersgate hashtag/name which is a well duh. That isn't a problem at all.
As an amusing sidenote it's funny how the same people that want you to not use Gamersgate (which I totally agree with) want you to keep using Feminism even though that swung in the complete other direction.-
To be clear, the suggestion isn't really as simple as "Don't use the Gamergate hashtag." It's to establish an entirely new identity as a first step, so that when you do speak up about gaming corruption or ask questions, it will be clear that you belong to that camp instead of the GamerGate one.
Plus, several people in this thread have stated they aren't with GG and then gone on to ask perfectly valid questions that have led to good discussions.-
As a side-note, my experience engaging with GG supporters has generally been frustrating, specifically because they don't often ask about real issues in gaming journalism because they're so focused on wild conspiracy theories. They don't seem interested in hearing us explain how or why certain aspects of our job works. That's not a discussion, it's a pillory.
There are issues in game journalism, yes, but they're not as sexy or inflammatory as the more broad-reaching "conspiracy" narrative, so the actual problems are largely going unaddressed. If we're going to solve the problems, it's not going to be by lobbing bombs in the direction of game journalists. You have to come at the questions honestly and hear us out.
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This is an attack on the Freedom of Artistic Expression in the name of feminism. You want to talk about smoke-screens, open your eyes. You are willing to do whatever it takes to protect woman never thinking that maybe, just maybe, they don't need your protection and its not what this is about in the first place. But hey, what about men, are you leaping to protect men from sexism? It happens all the time but its no big deal right, enter feminism; the ugly double standard.
This did not start when the name GamerGate was attached to it yet you lazy journalists continue to try and connect GamerGate to negativity. GamerGate has raised the funds for The Fine Young Capitalists (a team of female devs) to make their game, thats huge, why no mention of that here? I wonder. Its because you only seek to discredit this movement.
What about the fact that 4chan was run by a supporter of this pro-extreme feminism leaning political agenda? No mention of that? He goes by the handle moot. You didn't get that far did you? This entire debacle makes me sad as a gamer because it proves one of two things about many of the journalists involved; they have no integrity and will repost what other journalists wrote without questioning it, or they lack the skills to do proper research. I come to you guys for the straight dope, the real story, when I cannot get it from you, you better believe there is a problem. When I have to do the research myself because you cannot be bothered or you cannot see the forest for the trees I see no reason to support your site with my time or my clicks (your revenue stream) in the future.
We have been watching and cataloging for awhile; Attack on Deep Silver by RPS 2013, attack on various games by Anita & Company, Journalists & Devs profiting off of the level of control and audience they have access to through fake Indie awards, Journalists & Devs freaking out on online, some even "quitting" then returning the next week, Gamasutra's writers repeatedly making racist comments and getting people fired who did not want to tow the line. Reddit, 4chan, PC Gamer, and many more sites censoring comments and banning users simply for asking questions. Various web sites and blogs reposting articles they did not write, nor did they research. All because some mythical princess apparently needs saving. So when the Princess needs to be saved common sense is thrown to the ground, then you ride it around in front of us and then proceed to tell us why GamerGate is a bad thing and why we are apparently a bad people for having our own opinions.
The list goes on, all you seek to do is side-step and derail. We see you for what you are. Your bookmarks will be deleted, your web site will be added to the list of the untrustworthy.
Make no mistake; you will not dictate to me why I support GamerGate nor why we are sick and tired of corrupt journalists (such as the writer of this article) who refuse to accept that GamerGate is a legitimate cause. We do not need to change the name, misogynists are everywhere in society, if you cannot see that you are part of the problem. GamerGate is against sexism and racism, if you are a gamer; we accept you. Its you that seems to have the problem accepting us, perhaps you should be evaluating yourself.-
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I guess my first question would be. Do you work in the gaming industry in some capacity? If the answer is no then you can just ignore the outlets you find distasteful. I mean as far as reviews and stuff there are tons of demos and word of mouth and other journalists not caught up in whatever it is that you don't like. You shouldn't let things like this get you so stressed out dude, it's not good for you, just don't give them your clicks.
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That is what I've been doing, but leaving without providing some indication to the why would be of little use to my peers here. This is some of the research I have verified myself so I do not have to rely on anyone else's distorted take:
#GamerGate vs the SJW: A Web of Lies
http://pastebin.com/E44gWGms
Some people have already been programmed to think its all about men attacking woman (which this Shack article re-enforces); once they hear that they refuse to acknowledge anything else. That is the smoke-screen in action. This is why we created the #notyourshield hashtag, because we are men, woman, and transgender from all walks of life. How can people keep saying we are against woman and minorities when many of us are those things? Its ridiculous. I am not their shield, none of us want to be. So to write an article such as this is to deny those very realities. They are out-right ignoring that facet of our argument, thus anyone that sees value in GamerGate is ridiculed, stereotyped, and ostracized simply because of their affiliation they are vilified. Take note, I was censored on PC Gamer and reddit for saying the same.
Read the comments in response to my first post here, many of them attack me, not my stance. Like it matters that I'm dyslexic so I capitalize some words. Like that has any bearing on this conversation. How I am told what I think and when I say otherwise I am called a child, a 30-ish year old child, indeed, child in my heart, don't wanna be any other way, but really see how they take it to the personal attack level when I wanna have real talk. The White Knight is ever vigilant, for what? For her, what her? Doesn't matter to him.
I am not angry, anger doesn't fuel someone for this long, I seek answers and a proactive resolution. Changes have already taken place, many more will come before this is over, games journalism will never be the same. I am dismayed to see ShackNews standing in the way. One of the last sites I trusted. As you said I can leave, and I shall after this conversation is over. Notice how they failed to even respond to my various questions here or on twitter? So my questions are not important enough. Take notice of how so many are swayed away from the real stories and automatically go into troll, attack, or mock mode without thinking for themselves. These are human beings, so I would be foolish to expect something different. Which takes us back to a main point again, people are shitty to each-other all over, pointing at gaming and crying misogynists is disingenuous at best.
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Its one thing for journalists to write about their political affiliation and work towards a collective agenda. Unfortunately its gone far passed that point. They are actively forcing developers to change their games. When the games journalists do not serve the gamers (the user) nor the devs (the creator), who do they serve?
I will always speak out when art is being attacked, the medium does not matter. Art is the doorway into the soul, into the future, into the mind, and dreams. Art should not be manipulated by outsiders who only seek to destroy or replace it. See every banned book ever. Still don't get it? Then you need to read more, read The Painted Bird by Jerzy Kosiński to really understand. Its not an easy read so I will leave you with this from the introduction:
"Can the imagination, any more than the boy, be held prisoner?"
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He's talking about this, among other things
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/01/15/deep-silver-promote-dead-island-with-appalling-statue/
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I love the whole "we" thing. There is no "we" you fuckers can't even stick to a consistent agenda. You are also full of shit. Because a few people want to make indie games with a socially responsible message or minority groups are saying they'd like to see more and better representation in games or that women would like to have better options when playing won't stop Bro Shooter 2015 from coming out and selling a billion copies. Go find something else to be indignant about and leave the people that want to have fun playing games and still have a conscience the fuck alone.
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Haha this is one of the most "angry 15y/o" posts I've seen in 10 yrs. It's got all of it - proclaiming the other side is Evil without explaining why, asserting it's the voice of equality and justice without saying what they're doing for those causes, ignoring the points of the argument it would have to counter to actually plead its side in a rational and convincing way, random capitalizations of Things it's Decided are Important, raging emotions, a hand-wavey appeal to patriotism, and a Threat to take Revenge by doing something Nobody Cares About.
This is how folks see you when people live and die for some stupid bullshit on the internet:
You can't tell me what to think! You're NOT MY REAL DAD!!
It's not the way to win the hearts and minds of people who have no horse in your silly game. Honestly, you should get a real cause: http://www.amnestyusa.org
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I like how "They're talking about killing her" only actually consists of one person MAKING A POST. That's not people talking, if this was seriously being talked about, where are the rest of the comments? So now one person posts an idiotic idea and all of gamersgate is at fault? Always the lamest excuses for why gamergate should just go away. I guarantee 99% of this stupid talk within gamersgate comes from the younger teenage gamers and not from the older adult gamers. Most of Zoe Quinn's "blowing gamergate wide open" is her taking screencaps of conversation and then adding in whatever she wants. See someone talked about hacking me, me and my best bud didn't hack ourselves.
I also find it odd that for all the people in the world who get death threats why are these the only ones in the news? It's almost as if the people receiving the threats don't consider them real, so they go ahead and keep on talking about their death threats. You know the thing law enforcement tells you not to do when you receive death threats.-
Another good one from Zoe was someone saying #notyourshield really taking the heat off us, thank god for whoever came up with that. And that is somehow proof that #notyourshield is all fake. Does she provide evidence of someone actually saying "hey I made #notyourshield to help deflect attention back onto x person"? Nope, just one person going thank god for #notyourshield and that's all the proof needed to know that it's 100% fake.
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