Microsoft: Games for Windows Live 'had a rocky start,' will 'continue to get better'
Microsoft has addressed Games for Windows Live's "rocky launch" and again said it will continue improving the PC gaming service.
Not for the first time and surely not for the last, Microsoft has spoken about Games for Windows Live's "rocky start" and pledged again to continue improving it.
"The service started with the right intent, which was to bring Achievements, friends, multiplayer gaming and matchmaking in a really great way to PC," Microsoft interactive entertainment senior producer Kevin Unangst told CVG. "I think because it was designed originally as a partner to the console service more than the PC service, we had a rocky start."
Games for Windows Live (GFWL), not to be confused with Games for Windows or the Games for Windows Marketplace, is the service and client Microsoft uses to offer many features of Xbox Live in PC games. The GFWL suite offers developers ready-made solutions for DRM, achievements, friends, voice communication, matchmaking, an in-game marketplace for downloadable content, and more.
"We also didn't back it up with the most important thing, which is doing fantastic games to take advantage of the service. A network by itself isn't valuable--there needs to be great games to take advantage."
However, while GFWL has now attracted more developers and games, others have tried it and are now leaving. Relic used GFWL in Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II and its first expansion Chaos Rising but ditched it in favour of Valve's Steamworks for the second expansion, Retribution. Relic is also using Steamworks for Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine. IO Interactive's Kane & Lynch 2: Dog Days also turned to Steamworks, after GFWL was used in the original Kane & Lynch: Dead Men.
Unangst explained that Microsoft is taking feedback from developers to improve the service. This includes the teams behind Age of Empires Online and Fable 3, games which MS owns and will be publishing.
"I look at it as like what Halo did for Xbox Live," he said, "where you had Bungie and Microsoft going back and saying 'to make a great multiplayer game here's some things I need in the service, here's my audience.'"
"I think the underpinnings are great," Unangst said, "I think it's going to continue to get better."
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replyComment on Microsoft: Games for Windows Live 'had a rocky start,' will 'continue to get better', by Alice O'Connor.
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Just because steam is the best doesn't mean that they can't drastically improve GFWL
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And them being Microsoft means they will never admit they have a problem and pretend Xboxs and PC are the same thing.
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The only way MS can drastically improve it is by deleting it forever.
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Or paying Valve enough money to let them own Steam...
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So the day PC gaming is officially dead?
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While his comment was intended to be a joke on the publishers leaving GFWL for Steamworks, I feel like you deserve an answer anyway.
Yes, they have. Three of them in the last year and two months. Game Room, Tinker, and Carneyvale Showtime are what they have put onto the PC. Upcoming, there is Microsoft Flight, Age of Empires Online and Fable 3. All of these use Games for Windows LIVE.
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I thought he was joking at first, but looking at some of his previous posts is O_o?
http://www.shacknews.com/user/loganscar/posts
Almost every other thing is about how GFWL is awesome and how Steam is terrible. At first I'd want to say shill or even poor troll (see stuff like: http://www.shacknews.com/article/66131/microsoft-announces-web-based-games?id=24320497 ), but I'm starting to think it's more delusion than anything.
I have no problems with GFWL like a large majority of the naysayers do, that is aside from the times I do have these issues with saves and backups and profiles and updates and even the UI and it annoys me, but wow. So much blind love and support for barely any return. Steam is the gift that keeps on giving. GFWL is like that dead beat uncle who gives you a fondle and a $25 gift certificate every third x-mas.
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Yes i believe it will happen on December 12, 2012.
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2012 - year of the games for windows live, followed by ps3, linux and videogames that make you cry
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Summary: Microsoft address the "rocky start" GFWL had, and once again talks of improving the service. This time, they're taking feedback from the Age of Empires Online and Fable 3 teams onboard.
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Funny that you say that as I guess you have forgotten just how awful Steam was when it started out? I remember it very well, hell even today some of Steam's "features" still have issues. How often does the community/friends/chat go offline in Steam? How far behind is the chat system in Steam compared to others? Point is, Steam is great in some ways, passable in others and really dodgy in a few but it is far from the "Golden Child" that many self proclaimed hardcore PC gamers claim it is.
Besides, if Microsoft has anything going for them, it's persistence. People said they would never be able to compete in the console market but look where they are now. It took them a lot of time, money and effort but they did it. Zune is another area that naysayers will pile on, and sadly it still hasn't really gotten anywhere yet the Zune HD is highly regarded as one of the best devices out there by people whom have actually used them. I'm just saying, Microsoft's persistence may well pay off in this area as well. It may take much more time but they seem determined to do it. And competition is always a good thing.-
You raise some fair points, Lycronis. The problem is in how the pitched it as a sign (if you will) that they were finally making an effort to suppot PC gaming. In light of that, to have launched so badly with it was a HUGE insult and mistake. I fear they'll not be able to fully recover from it.
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And Steam was absolutely hated by huge numbers of gamers when it was forced upon them with Half-Life 2. A lot of people didn't have broadband back then, so being forced to register online and download updates before playing was a huge pain. People forget what a huge fuss that was at the time.
Personally, I've had very few problems with GFWL, but loads of problems with Steam. -
Steam was a bit of a steaming pile at first.
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i bought bioshock 2 on sale through steam back at christmas time. I've only finally had a chance to play it recently. The multiple log in screens and having to type in a separate activation code (which I had to search online to figure out what they wanted - it said to look at my manual cover for the code, but it was purchased online!) were confusing and extremely irritating. Being logged in to Steam already should be enough!
Awesome game otherwise - really enjoying it.
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The killer addition that Microsoft needs is to control the network and game experience to where PC and Console players could play against each other more often.
And in the "wild fantasy" arena of my mind I have always kind of envisioned Microsoft could release a GFWL Virtual XBOX 360 emulator for Windows 7 Virtual PC that limited the virtual PC specs to XBOX 360 hardware specs and instantly you could double or triple the XBL subscribers. I see it as a instant money maker and something to truly revolutionize Windows 7.-
Why would you want that? I dont want greasy console controls. I prefer the accuracy and precision of control that PC gaming gives me. Dont lock the FOV into that 90 degree BS, don't limit control schemes to some preset mappings, and for gods sake, DONT make games that are peer to peer. Those are all things most PC gamers DONT want.
LESS control is the goal. Not more.-
Look man. I'm not only a gamer, I am a game developer and I'm looking for a way to make PC gaming relevant again.
Sure I like the precision of mouse+kbd as well but Microsoft needs something to bridge the gap and utilizing all of this virtualization technology we all have in our CPU's that is currently underutilized as far as gaming goes and this idea would be a great boon to PC gaming and also could potentially be very lucrative.
On top of this all, its this "us vs. them" mentality between console gamers and PC gamers that is widening the gap.
I have no idea where you see having a 360 VM on a Windows PC as "control" either. You would have to make sure that the VM specs keep the hardware experience EVEN between real 360's and the 360 VM otherwise the PC users would have a distinct advantage and that cant be allowed if anyone ever tried this crazy idea. -
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Isn't hardware sold at a loss or at cost to sell the software on for profit later? Even if they lost XBOX sales they'd pick up on software sales where the real money is.
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The PS2 one does kind of exists, although it's been a while since I tried it last.
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Here's an idea...make it easy! Shocker!
When I play Bioshock 2 or Arkham Asylum on Steam, I have to sign in, then sign into GFWL. Sometimes it will say there is an update available (which there isn't), and will search for about 5 minutes before finally letting me play. Other times it lets me in. It should be able to work with other vendors (Direct Drive, GG, Steam) and realize that you shouldnt need to sign into 3 different ID's to play a damn game.
Secondly, they need to redesign their website. it's awful.
Id like to see more deals on it too, like Steam.
Lastly, MS needs to start appreciating PC gaming as a SEPARATE GROUP from XBL gamers. PC Gamers do not generally appreciate being added into the XBL-type of gameplay experience. Generally they are a little more demanding (not a bad thing) on the things they want. Instead of asking game companies, how about asking actual PC Gamers what they want to have in a service like GFWL, then actually make it happen? No, Cliffy B does not count. Stop trying to say you support PC gaming, then try choking us off by giving us a reduced experience. -
Meanwhile...
"Afterwards, CVG asked Maki to explain why [Alan Wake] was canned on the [PC].
"I can't really discuss that," he said. "I will say that it wasn't a technological call. And it wasn't made in Finland."" -
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I doubt that would happen unless Gabe were to die and some stupid took over.
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why would Valve sell their cash cow?
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taking advantage of stupid people yes. This is still an answer to the original comment.
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Im pretty sure that Valve used that entire hat thing as an experiment to see what people were willing to pay on certain items, to better gauge what they should do in the future regarding microtransactions. It was definitely not a 'hey art department, create a bunch of stuff we can sell to make more money'
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Sorry MS. I don't trust you in the gaming front these days. This comes from someone who heavily pushes you in just about every other tech field out there. Servers, desktops, etc.. Hell, I'm even on-board your mobile platform if you can get it into enough hands. However, gaming is another story.
I consider MS to be a bunch of traitors on the gaming front. If you cared about PC gaming, then there wouldn't be such a thing as an Xbox Exclusive that game from MS Studios. If you cared about PC gaming, we'd see PC-gaming only features. Instead you decided that there was nothing more to gain from your PC Gaming audience, and you'd sell it all for your new console business. Then, when you finally take a look back at the PC as a gaming platform, and realize that Valve stole your lunch while you were chasing console glory, you suddenly want back in the game.
Let's not confuse anyone, though. MS wants the $$$. They'd still give a damn about PC gaming if Valve wasn't making fists full of money from Steam. MS doesn't deserve your trust with GFWL. -
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For me it was clunky when it first came but has since gotten better and works for me and works well. I think the negative comments come from MS trying to charge PC gamers for GFWL in the first place. BIG MISTAKE. Not to mention their complete lack of support for PC as a gaming platform. All these exclusive 360 titles that should have been on PC too from the very beginning (I'm looking at you Alan Wake) The people in charge or running the PC gaming part at MS are a bunch of fucktards shooting themselves in the foot and wondering why no one likes their shit or believes for one second that they care about PC gaming.
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I am an incredibly laid back and calm person - GFWL is one of two things that makes me swear at the computer screen, the other being a game of Heroes of Newerth.
Seriously, sometimes I've just been unable to play a game because of this infinite loop of saying I need to update to play something or a myriad of other problems that hasn't been limited to a single computer.
GFWL is a abomination of the highest magnitude and the sooner it dies in a ditch covered in petrol, burning, screaming for someone to stamp on it's face to put it out of it's misery the better
:) -
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Until Microsoft stops seeing PC as a competing with XBOX and releases XBOX exclusives on PC, they are not serious about Games for Windows. It's kind of silly that gaming news sites post press releases like this as news.
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^^This
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I second the second of ^^this
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^^^ i third this.
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Do not want
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Better GfWL in three bullet points:
- Allow developers to publish patches without MS QA approving them
DoW2 and 2033 both suffered from patch delays of up to two weeks, making the experience much more troublesome. If there's a bug/imbalance/error in a game, it should be fixed as fast as possible. This may cause further problems if improperly patched, but the onus for such actions should be on the developer.
- Allow developers to release DLC for free
Relic hated this policy so much they slipped Last Stand into a patch rather than call it DLC. The concept of paying for new content may be status quo on consoles, but PC gamers have been getting free post-release content for 20+ years. If a developer wants to make their customers happy without getting paid, let them.
- Improve network connectivity
"NAT transversal error" anyone? That two DMZ'd players could connect in any service but GfWL speaks poorly of the technical aspect. It was commonplace in DoW2 for a team of three players in ranked matches to be seperated due to errors in the matchmaking system. Why would any developer choose a multiplayer protocol with a record of bad service?-
You know for sure the first two points are valid? Is it an MS approval thing or just a matter of patch distribution. I know they have cert for their console titles, but I haven't heard that the GFWL requirements are the same. Same goes for the DLC.
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First point I am sure on. For a game to have the "Games for Windows" logo it's required for any and all updates to be Microsoft certified. For example, DoW2 had all updates distributed through Steam, yet all patches note they required MS certification.
Second point is conjecture, but practically confirmed. 2033's Ranger Pack is free on PC, 240 MS points ($3) on 360; TF2's updates on the console side needed to be priced because "they want us to charge money for them, because that's in their model" (Gabe).-
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Yes, only GFW Live titles require updates to be certified from Microsoft. To get the GFW banner, IIRC the game has to meet the technical requirements, but it doesn't have to have updates certified through Microsoft.
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2K Marin fought with cert over the Protector Trials DLC, which was why they initially gave up on releasing that and Minerva's Den for PC: http://www.shacknews.com/article/66205/bioshock-2-pc-getting-minervas
"When we announced that Protector Trials and Minerva's Den would not be coming out for the PC due to technical and timing issues, we received a lot of feedback (much of it understandably expressing disappointment and anger) about our decision.In terms of the patch and the Protector Trials, we had a working build but there were bugs in the code that would trigger problems with the game during specific situations, and we were not happy enough with the status of the build to release it for certification with Microsoft."
Ask dahanese; it was her statement.
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Unless it gives me free money I despise GFWL and will do everything in my power to not use it.
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Note the title of the full interview: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/292679/interviews/microsoft-2011-is-incredible-for-xbox/
"2011 is incredible for XBox! Oh yeah, about Games for Windows Live..."
Last year's disaster in Kinect ruining certification, as well as the botched XBLA release of Super Meat Boy, also come to mind. -
Rock Paper Shotgun did a pretty good look at the service in response to this guy's quotes...
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/09/on-the-rocks-games-for-windows-live/-
From the comments of that article, this guy does a decent job of documenting his struggle with GFWL:
http://jalf.dk/blog/2010/11/gfwl-malice-or-incompetence/ -
Wow. The comments are interesting. A large US server operator talks about what a nightmare it was just to setup a single Section 8 server (Section 8 uses GFWL):
"I can setup a source-based server (as well as servers for most other games that use Steam for backend support, such as the dozens of Monday Night Combat servers we’ve launched), in a matter of minutes.
It took over TWO MONTHS to get a single Section 8 server online. Why? Because their system was so shoddy and hobbled by lousy code (not to mention a manual whitelisting system that was only administered by one person), that it took that long to even get the damn thing to work."-
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Though to be fair, wouldn't the lousy coding for these Section 8 sdedicated servers be the fault of the developers and not GFWL? Unless MS has to sign off on that kind of thing.
I suppose it could have been a pain in the ass it get it working right for that service too, but it's hard to say without more info.
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Its honestly not that hard.. LISTEN to PC GAMERS and you won't become steam, but still decently successful. Instead Microsoft decides on there high throne. NO chat for GFWL? Really!? Annoying as hell in dow2. I'm glad they ditched it. "click click click" send message.. wait "click click click" receive reply". Yea that's real streamlined....
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The only reason i downloaded GFWL was to play Bioshock. "What Halo did for XBox Live..." you mean the award-winning game trilogy that wasnt out on PCs until months after xbox release? what a great analogy. Microsoft needs to quit while theyre ahead, they can improve GFWl but theres no chance in hell they can come close to steams level.
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I've never had a big problem with GFWL other then trying to get Grand Theft Auto IV working on launch day... 3 and a half hours of misery. Other then that.. seems OK I can download things and play Dead Rising 2 with a friend. For a casual user of it, I haven't had such a bad experience with it and if they want to make it better then go for it.
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If Sony/PSN wants to beat Microsoft then they should partner/merge with Steam. The first team that manages to bring their online platform to both a major console and a PC will win. GFWL is too hamstrung by console specific mandates like the certification process that all patches must go through before being deployed (a process that Microsoft bills developers for). From an incubation standpoint alone, GFWL will never attract a developer base because there are too many fees making the barrier to entry too high. I'd also wager that Microsoft takes a bigger cut of digital sales than Valve does. Recent Steam success stories like Amnesia Dark Descent would not happen on GFWL.
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4 years is a rocky start!?! o.0 Not enough time to improve the service in that time (or just light it on fire like the flaming bag of crap it is)? Pffft...
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The first thing they need to do in order to take a step in the right direction is too make all their AAA exclusive titles available on Day 1 for the PC alongside the piece of shit 360. Second make those ports REAL PC ports. Not some slapped together garbage made for the 360 and then thrown to the PC as a bone to get whatever extra sales they can get as gravy. That means a real amount of money and dev resources devoted to the PC version of the game. That's where they need to start. It's called leading by example Microsoft and putting your money where your mouth is. Until then please take a hardy healthy dose of STFU. Thank you.
Signed,
PC gamers all around the world.-
Rather than a PC port, they ought to be developing it on the PC first, then dumbing down everything, graphics included, for the Xdump360. Developing it for consoles initially makes certain "features" seep into their PC counterparts, such as framerates limited to 30, or something dumb like that, that won't be patched for another half year, or quirky mouse integration making the acceleration rather off. The mouse issue hasn't been fixed in Red Faction: Guerilla, and doubtfully will ever be and it's absolutely terrible and makes aiming a royal pain.
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that start has been lasting about 5 years.
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How many times over the past few years have we heard them say that?
Aug 2006: http://www.shacknews.com/article/43364/microsoft-gamefest-2006-microsofts-games
May 2008: http://www.shacknews.com/article/55890/the-new-games-for-windows
Nov 2008: http://www.shacknews.com/article/55914/games-for-windows-live-interview
Dec 2010: http://www.shacknews.com/article/66930/report-microsoft-to-focus-on
Mar 2011: http://www.shacknews.com/article/67756/microsoft-games-windows-live-had#itemanchor_25453260 -
GFWL made me regret buying Bulletstorm from my local EB, after realizing how I pretty much cut myself off from anyone I know that I could possibly play with. (Xbox Live/Steam Network) It's made me rather annoyed and cautious of anything that is released with it. I'm debating on removing my pre-order of Brink from EB if I'm faced with the same issue and just going with Steam. I want to be able to play games with my friends, not just see what they are playing. Screw achievements.
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Brink is supposedly a Steamworks title, so it shouldn't matter where you purchase it.
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