Twitch bans deadmau5 for hate speech, use of homophobic slur
Superstar EDM performer deadmau5 has deleted his Twitch channel following a ban for hate speech. The artist does not deny the use of the homophobic slur in an unapologetic response.
Twitch has been trying to increase their attempts at moderating their streamers' content and today the company has banned popular EDM performer deadmau5 from streaming on the platform.
According to reports, during a PUBG live stream on his Twitch channel, deadmau5 said “Is that some fucking cock-sucking stream sniper fag,” in an outburst. The moment was clipped, but has since been deleted.
The musician posted the following statement to the deadmau5 subreddit:
While not denying saying the hateful words, deadmau5 shows very little remorse. "If im sorry for antying, im sorry that we live in a world where bottom feeding pieces of shit can sit there starring at a monitor, watching me play videos games, and just waiting for someone to get tilted so he can get a few fucking clicks. thats what i'm sorry for." Harsh truths for an increasing outrage culture on the Internet.
Still, deadmau5 claims it was an outburst resulting from stream sniping, which is entirely possible. This is not unlike the moment pewdiepie shouted the n word in a moment of rage during a live stream, but Twitch was very quick to act on this information. The company had received criticism in the past for being too relaxed with popular streamers, but today's actions show that Twitch moderation is not going to sit by while hate speech rules are being broken. Clearly, deadmau5 has context for the outburst, but the lack of any real apology is unfortunate.
He has deleted his Twitch channel, saying that "While we've had some fun partnerships here and there, and they were a great company to work with... im gunna have to cut this one short. I dont have the capacity to deal with that kind of shit." Maybe we will see him on Mixer sometime down the road?
In case you missed it, a much less abrasive EDM DJ performed at Pleasant Park in Fortnite. Check out our Marshmello gameplay!
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replyAsif Khan posted a new article, Twitch bans deadmau5 for hate speech, use of homophobic slur
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Did he call someone a dirty rat?
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You never screen jacked playing two player games with someone? It's not a new concept.
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I always hated cleaning off the monitor afterwards.
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broadly i think its when some kid tries to get in a streamers game with the sole purpose of trying to kill/troll them. I'm sure it would get annoying/boring after a while for the streamer to deal with
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hey maybe just don't call people faggots, pretty hard i know
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I might up going against the shack herd on this, but I just think that is fucking dumb.
He used some nasty words but this trend of demanding perfection from people is some high horse bullshit. Every single person saying this was deserved has done much worse in their lives than saying a couple of offensive words. Yes, streaming is different, but slips happen and that is only human. This is essentially a punishment for thought crimes, and that shit is one slippery slope.
Words like cocksucker and fa**** are unfortunately used commonly and they tend to stick. I let stuff like that slip from time to time when I lose my temper while gaming, but it's certainly not because I have anything anything against homosexuals, and if anyone hearing me "tilt" assumed that, well, they'd be stupid for doing so. The South Park episode on the subject of the word "fag" back in the day pretty much made my point.
I'm not defending his choice of words, but I am upset that we're at a point where losing your temper and saying a couple of nasty words is enough to get you banned from a service like Twitch. It only makes the use of the words seem edgier to the young and dumb, anyway. It's not making things better.
As long as people are people, grabbing onto seconds of weakness and then laying eternal judgement on people for them is not the way to a society where we all get along.-
i mean, who hasn't said the n-word from time to time right
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I have. I listen to a lot of rap music, and thus I hear the word used in a more or less offensive context dozens and dozens of times a week. It sticks, and then a few times it has slipped.
I'm glad if your brain works in a way that means things like that don't happen. Mine doesn't. Many people's don't.
If that makes me a shitty person in your book, I don't really think that's too fair.-
your original argument was for the f-word; now you're including the n-word.
i don't think that makes anyone an automatically shitty person HOWEVER i also don't think it warrants automatic chest-puffing popeye-style "I AM WHO I AM" righteousness.
they're shitty words maybe we can all try to say them less often vs. "hey i said it; so what, assholes???"-
I'm sorry, but is the n-word worse than the f-word? Is it more OK to insult homosexuals than it is to insult black people, or what are you saying here?
Nobody is is chest-puffing here. I made it very clear that it is not intentional. As in, a mistake. As in, I regret the times it happened.
My point isn't "so what, assholes", and I said nothing like it. My point is that to err is human, and we shouldn't judge people for slips.
There's a difference between doing something once and doing it regularly. For the latter I would have no issue with him being banned.-
i think we are on the same page here.
having meaningful discussions is really hard on the internet, sometimes.-
The Shack is really the only place on the entire internet where I trust the average user's ability to have a proper discussion enough that I'd ever take any part in a thread like this. Especially in a way that can easily be seen as me advocating for bigotry.
I just really feel like knee jerk judgments are not the way to a happier, more equal world.-
I respect your obvious ability for self-analysis. I would ask you to consider the possibility that while avoiding letting the n or f word slip might be difficult at times for you, it is NOT difficult for the vast majority of people.
You can empathize with the dude here, I get it. But I certainly can't. And the reaction here isn't "knee jerk". It's appropriate punishment for what we as a society have deemed unacceptable behavior.
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Now do violent video games!
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I think black people have a right to the word, in whatever way they want to use it, and if it's hands-off for white people forever, good. If they want to take a word that was used to torture and dehumanize them, and rub it right back in the face of white america, that is fine with me - and it isn't a question of seperating art from reality, its just one tiny thing that they get that we're not allowed to touch (which infuriates a lot of white people even now) - but I mean, you look at the inequality, the horrible imbalance, both historically and in the present - reparations obviously aren't coming - but they get a word - one tiny little word, that only they get to define, and use - and this for a lot of white america is a bridge to far.
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I grew up on hip hop, and still listen to a fucking ton of it. I hear the n word all the time.
That said, it has NEVER slipped for me. It isn't a word that would feel comfortable saying at all, in private or not.
Even then, in rap music, it is people referring to peers, sometimes themselves - its obviously not meant in a racially derogatory way. If you're not black, and you're using it in moments where your brain "slips" as an insult, its maybe time to sit down with yourself and reevaluate who you are and what you want to be in this world.
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Sorry, now that I read it once again I realize it was not clear, English is not my native language.
My point was that I can't make my brain "not ever say these words again". If I could, I would. But they literally slip sometimes, because I hear them on a daily basis in pop culture of all sorts, plus online gaming.-
He got heated and shat out an insult on instinct. Do you feel this was his first time using this brand new insult he just learned? Or is it more likely something he does commonly, and only just now got caught on record doing it? I mean was he using those words calculatedly, or were they just the first thing that came to his mind? If they were the first thing that came to his mind, then he uses them all the time. If he was using these terms specifically tailored to that one person, then he's a fucking asshole AND offensively homophobic.
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I once said "shit" in front of my parents when I was a kid when I meant to say something else. I didn't swear as a kid so a word slipped out that I had heard but never said.
But, no, certain words are literally magic hate words and can never slip out by accident? I don't think so.
This isn't the case with deadmau5 since his entire sentence led up to it - but I disagree with your idea.
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A couple thoughts:
1) twitch is a corporation, and likely has these policies not for your feelings but to protect it's product in the mindshare of parents letting their kids watch.
2) the position "we should be allowed to say racial and homophobic slurs forever" isn't defensible by anyone, so annoyingly, the position that we should be able to say them occasionally will be held by both shitheads that want to say them at all and by reasonable people that are looking for punishment proportional to crime. If you feel you are "going up against the shack herd", it is legitimately because in this internet age it is impossible to tell which of those two camps you are in.-
I know Twitch has policies. But if a policy says that a couple of bad words get you banned, then that's in my view a pretty unreasonable policy - no matter how well founded their reasons for having said policy are.
My position isn't so much "we should be able to say them occasionally" - no-one ever should - as it is "people make mistakes and we shouldn't assume they're not mistakes the first time they make them".
I'm just ignoring what I've learned about the guy in the responses here because I made my original argument with the assumption that he had done nothing wrong except say those couple of words in a heated moment. It seems he's done... more.-
Sure, I don't think you'd be going up against a shack herd in your scenario. I am pretty against twitch being a platform for shitty people and I still think these policies need to be made in the real world.
(I think having a habit of questioning if this was the only reason for banning is a good instinct to have when these stories come up) -
As someone who has moderated similar apps, your thinking on this is very idealistic. It doesn't work like that in the vast, vast majority of professional or social settings. We aren't talking about someone saying "shit" accidentally.
Very few platforms have the time or resources to decide "Is this person a true despicable bigot or is his heart pure and this was a one time mistake?" How many times do you forgive before that vocabulary becomes "accepted" and added to a bunch of kids vocab like you said the n-word was added to yours by rap.
If anything, they've given streamers the benefit of the doubt previously, until social media outcries forced them to act. I'm personally good with a zero tolerance policy... anything else has too many points of failure.
Id also like to point out it seems (if I'm reading the Reddit comments correctly) he just got a 30 day temp ban. He's just choosing not to come back because he wants to make a point about... something. Free speech? He used a word associated with bigotry, doesn't feel the need to apologize, but he's totally not a bigot and how dare anyone think that of him? I don't know, something like that.
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The Twitch community and employees should really read 21 Lessons For The 21st Century.
I love how you can shoot zombies in the face and shoot blood everywhere in a video game, but saying cocksucker is some how more offensive. You can MURDER a 1000 people in a game and teabag real people. But a generic insult is ban worthy. -
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Since this whole argument is pretty much analogous to some of the previous threads from like 2 years ago regarding pewdiepie I’m going to link my old post:
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=36700285#item_36700285
More generally, I think we need to all stop getting hung up on the question of "Am I/him/you a bigot ?" and instead ask each of ourselves, "Do I want to be bigoted ? Do I want to hurt other people?" And if the answer is no, then your path is simple and straightforward. Whenever someone says "Hey, this thing you said or did, it hurts me and here is why" and you can understand how your actions or words affected them you simply apologize and stop doing it.
Not saying the n-word or fa**** or retard takes nothing away from us. The only thing we lose is the capacity to degrade whole groups of people with no personal or real context. And if we don't want to be bigots and we don't want to hurt people that is really no loss at all.
For further reading that is long and likely no one will read regarding specifically how this casual and “unintentional” use is still not good see the following linked posts (you can replace racism in the following linked posts with bigotry and my meaning generally remains applicable):
Part 1: Preface of Terms
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309182#item_38309182
Part 2: Defining Terms
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309186#item_38309186
Part 3: A General Understanding of Bigotry
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309189#item_38309189
Part 4: Affecting Change
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309194#item_38309194
Part 5: The Role & Goal of Calling Out Bigotry
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309231#item_38309231
Part 6: A Conclusion of Sorts
https://www.shacknews.com/chatty?id=38309236#item_38309236
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""Do I want to be bigoted ? Do I want to hurt other people?" And if the answer is no, then your path is simple and straightforward. Whenever someone says "Hey, this thing you said or did, it hurts me and here is why" and you can understand how your actions or words affected them you simply apologize and stop doing it."
My entire point is that I can't simply "stop doing it". It slips because they're words that I hear repeated on a daily basis in the pop/gaming culture I consume.
Every time I do it I feel bad about it. I don't know how much clearer I could have made this across my posts. But it still happens from time to time because that's the way the human brain - or at least my brain - works.
And thus I don't think it's too fair judging people purely based on a moment of frustration and their verbal reaction to it.-
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And that's just BS. You don't get to tell me how my brain functions.
90% of the English I hear is music, and I just happen to like rap music. Things stick. When my friends consistently use phrases and words, those stick and I end up repeating them, whether they're insulting ones or not.
I've said 3+ times across this thread that I'd stop it if I could and that I find it disturbing when it happens. There are few things on this planet that enrage me more than bigotry. You don't get to tell me that there's something in my values or conscious decision making that makes those words come out.-
You are simply letting those words come out even if you feel bad. If a word is bad is in your vocabulary you have to make the effort to stop. Number one by never saying it and being conscious of that. Just hearing a word doesn’t put it in your vocabulary of normal speak, using it does.
It’s entirely on you to make the effort to stop. Being upset you said it is a good first start but that’s the trivially easy thing.-
"Just hearing a word doesn’t put it in your vocabulary of normal speak"
After enough repetition, that is exactly what it does for me. Like I said, you don't get to tell me that's not how my brain works, and you repeating it doesn't make it any more true.
We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.-
I probably wasn’t clear and that is my mistake. First, I don’t think you are some bad person nor are you unique in this way. How we humans works is we hear something a lot then we decide to test the waters (most often subconsciously) and use that word or phrase in a conversation.
If you get no pushback on it your brain is likely to go well this worked I’ll try it again. It’s after this repetition that it’s now part of your vocabulary.
When I say choice I don’t mean you are going to snap your fingers and stop. I mean choice as in working to stop it.
You are already in step one of recognizing it’s bad and shouldn’t be. Step two is doing action to stop it. That’s the choice I’m referring to.
Written down it’s easy since you can proof anything you write. You mention you are alone and say these things. Every time you do stop. Why did you say that word? Think about it and one possible solution is to literally say out loud the phrase or word but with something more acceptable. Doing this enough times can train your brain with the same repetition. If your friends are saying bad things calm them out on it.
It won’t be some overnight change but you will change unless you are extremely rare and have a medical condition and have been diagnosed you make the choice to be better. -
You are leaning on a completely bullshit excuse / crutch. This is a line of defense I’d use as an angry teenager. A line of defense I’d expect from an angry teenager.
I hear the word in media, too. I cringe when I hear it because I know the impact of it. I never use it.
Your brain is not special or unique in this way. When you finally (if you ever) have some close friends who are gay and have been hurt and berated with words like that all their life, maybe you’ll finally acquire the perspective and empathy and can grow. -
Yep you're the one human who can't exercise self control if they hear a word too many times
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Have you never accidentally said the wrong word? It happens. It's usually innocuous, but sometimes it's probably not!
I, for one, am a holy being, beyond such mortal failings as these. I can say without a doubt that I have never said the word "bloodfart" in anger. Anyone who does needs to take a look in the mirror and re-evaluate their inner self. I sell quartz crystals to draw impure vocabulary from people's minds. Please sm for details.-
Of course. 100% of people have. Throwing your hands up and acting like it's impossible to change because you listen to rap music or some nonsense is an immature, poorly thought-out response to the situation. A decent person acknowledges that they messed up and make an active effort to do better going forward. Pretty soon you realize it's not actually that hard to just not say racial or homophobic slurs after all.
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"Judge you for it?" Not super sure what you mean by that but I wouldn't immediately assume you're a racist or a homophobe or whatever. But hopefully someone around cares about you enough to immediately call you on your bullshit and give you the opportunity to realize your really dumb mistake and grow from it.
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You can stop doing it, it might require you to change the content you consume and consciously think things through over and over again though. What comes out automatically is just because that's what you've heard, said, read, and thought. To undo it is to forcibly correct yourself when you say/think it, and to remove the hearing and reading from your routine. Some people can get around it for the most part without changing their consumption habits, but I've never met anyone in real life like that.
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And to be even clearer: These are words that I shit out of my mouth alone in my dark living room. I could easily see myself forgetting that I have a stream going in a moment of weakness, and personally I like to give people the benefit of doubt that the same happened to them when shit like this hits the news.
I never have - and never would - specifically call someone these words intentionally over voice or chat. That's entirely different.-
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I truly meant to exit this thread as I posted, but after reading some of the replies, I can't. So I'll reply to a bunch of you at the same time. This is going to be angry because I'm annoyed, I'm sorry. This is not directed at everyone who replied to me, just a few.
The fact that some of you are arguing that words don't stick is ridiculous. Not every word that comes out of a person's mouth is considered. You don't need to have Tourettes to slip words. To argue otherwise is dense as fuck, and you should look up basic psychology before you point your judgy as fuck finger at anyone.
If I am surrounded by people saying f* this f* that all the time, then a f* might slip out of me at occasion. I don't like it, but if you're going to to tell me that the only possible explanation is that I'm a bigot, then you can fuck straight off. Consider the worst thing someone could call you and how that would make you feel. Screw you for implying shit like that because I admit to saying a bad word a few times after I've made it clear I am not proud of it. How do you think that helps anything? Do you think you're advocating for more understanding or acceptance by judging people for a single word they said? How does that make any sense?
Could I help it if I stopped listening to music I love, spent lots of time meditating my behavior and language in my own living room in solitude? Yeah, maybe. Maybe I just don't think it's that huge of a problem. And I can tell you for certain that neither would my - and yes, I am aware how corny this is - numerous gay friends who actually accept that I'm a human being who makes mistakes.
I've gotten my face punched and lost people I considered friends for calling out a racists. I've spent countless of hours arguing against racism and bigotry because I happen to have a little insight into how it feels to be judged based on the way one looks. I was brought up by a single parent mother who dedicated her life to helping out those in need and shunned.
Some of you are exhibiting the exact high horse bullshit that only makes it harder advocating for mutual understanding and respect. You don't respond to a small amount of potentially unintended hate speech with a pile of your own hate and judgment if you really want to be a positive influence on anything.
Saying fag once makes me a biggot? Saying cunt once makes me a misogynist? Every person who has ever quoted a Samuel L Jackson quote from Pulp Fiction is a racist? What the fuck are you smoking? What hope do we have of becoming a society of peace and understanding if that's all it takes for you to consider someone a problem and attacking them?
I'm not annoyed because you are attacking me. I can take it. I'm annoyed because you are a part of the problem and at the same time you are high as fuck on thinking that your judging is the solution. We are not going to get ANYWHERE, EVER if we can't accept that people make mistakes.
Attack those who run entire presidential campaigns on sustained racism. Attack those who march with tiki torches or whatever the hell they are called. Attack those who make videos one after another declaring white superiority, or how god hates homosexuals. I'll attack all of them with you. But don't tell me that letting a word slip that I hear 100 times a week means I'm one of those people. That will achieve nothing but an angry ass rant like this.-
I've already pointed out that a *quote* is one thing. What Deadmaus and Kramer did were angry rants utilizing those words as insults to hurt the people they were mad at. They were not quotes. Ninja just repeated the N-word over and over instead of the actual lines of the song he had forgotten/didn't know. That was not a quote. All of those most likely use those words casually when not being recorded, as evidenced by them being the first stop on their trip to Angerville (my mind just connected that to Angelville in Preacher).
I have no explanation as to why Ninja thought that was cool, but he completely got away with it. Hell, they promoted him! -
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Whether or not I could control saying the words in the future if I put enough effort into it - sure enough, I'll concede that I probably could. But that doesn't make the occurances intentional.
In any case, that's besides the point. What I'm saying is that someone saying something once isn't grounds for a shitfest like the ones we've seen lately, and they're only making things worse, not better.
My post was not directed at you. I chose to reply here because at the time of me hitting reply your reply was the newest one.-
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And I believe that if we judge others this easily - public figures or not - we're only making sure that we continue to be divided and angry.
Understanding, forgiveness and giving the chance for others to improve has to go both ways. If one word is enough for us to go "shut this guy up for good", then I see no hope for any kind of improvement to how things are.-
Shut him up for good? Did you see his reply? How he reacted to the event?
Don't be a both-sides-same we're-so-divided guy. We're not all that divided, there just happens to be some holdouts to some really gross and heinous shit who want to continue to get free passes for their bullshit in 2019.
You can sit on the fence and be the old guy who thinks he's wised up and really sees the world better than this crazy kids, or join us in 2019. Collectively as a society we're done using the words "fag" and "faggot" because more people understand the hurt those words cause, and more people understand that using them unapologetically as he so clearly did means he isn't worth supporting on the platform.
Dude wasn't given a jail sentence. He is safe in his home. Nobody is going to hurt him.
He's just not welcome on a platform.
You realize Twitch undoubtedly employs tons of people from all backgrounds, too, right?
This isn't hard to understand, but it's easy to MAKE it hard to understand for yourself if you'd like.
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The problem with what you're saying is this:
1) It's well known that in general it is just not OK for anyone outside of the gay community to call people f*****s pretty much period. (Similar to how it's not OK for anyone not black to call people n*****s)
2) Most people are going to give a person a second chance to correct their behavior if they use offensive language, though probably only if they are being apologetic and contrite about it.
If you're just going to say that these words are all over the content you consume and therefore it is inevitable that you are going to say it then I have zero patience or sympathy for you. I feel that is completely the wrong attitude and I'd be glad to see you banned from whatever platform.
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I’m not going to claim it’s the easiest thing in the world to do. It requires some non trivial amount of effort. But I know for a fact that it is possible. Unless you have a tick or Tourette’s or some other compulsive disorder (which I am aware exist and very familiar with as family members have had them) it is very possible to change that vocabulary use.
I myself have had to expend a solid amount of effort to stop saying words like retard and bitch casually. In middle school I had to spend a year stopping myself from calling stuff gay. It takes time and effort but is very much possible.
What I care about though is that you at least understand how even if it is very difficult to change that should not mean that we shouldn’t call people out for doing it. People won’t change unless they are made aware and that requires social pressure from calling it out.
I hope you try to read the posts linked at the bottom of my original reply which detail why exactly that casual and unintentional use is bad for people and why arguing against calling it out is also bad for affecting change.
If you do believe that the words are bad I hope you can understand what I try to explain in those linked posts.-
I will say here that I am sorry for assuming you have a similar capacity to change vocabulary as I do. I do not know if you do or do not. I take issue with your larger declaration that it is impossible for humans generally to change that.
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This is why I added "or at least my brain".
I understand this is most certainly not something everyone struggles with, but I do find it frustrating hearing people tell me flat out that hey, you could just stop doing that if you decided. That's not what I want to hear when I have truly tried doing so.
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I never said people shouldn't be called out for it. I'm just saying they shouldn't be forever judged as a person or banned from an entire service based on one occasion. (granted, I understand why Twitter does what it does from a business POV)
To err is human. This is very simple argument. My belief is that over reactions to things like these only make things worse, and work against ridding this world of racism, not for it.
When you start deciding why people say things in a moment of heat we're in thought crime territory, and that's not going to lead to any positive developments.-
Re-edited linked posts which address your reply: you might want to skip to Part 2 (in reply to this) which concerns affecting change positively.
PART 1: DEFINING BIGOTRY
I'm going to break Bigotry into 2 subtypes so treat this as me defining variables for use in a function.
Type 1: Active Bigotry:
I define for our purposes here Active Bigotry to be actions, words, systems, policies, etc. that make very active and intentional harms and oppressions against a group of people for no reason other than some fact of their person that has no bearing on their value as people (aka race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, etc.).
These are things like someone promoting the oppression of a group, degrading someone by using bigoted epithets targeted at them, performing the things we know to be clearly intentionally bigoted. Lynching, screaming "wetback" or "faggot" at a hispanic or gay person, telling people to "go back to *insert stereotypical place of origin or congregation here*" or "we don’t want your kind here," Things such as this done with the explicit intention of harming and directly and intentionally promoting the oppression of that group of people.
Type 2: Systemic Bigotry
I define for our purposes here Systemic Bigotry to be actions, words, systems, policies, etc. that through secondary or tertiary mechanisms either of societal interactions, group or individual psychology, economics, or any other method of interaction that is not exactly direct and in fact a secondary or tertiary effect of the initial action; that through those secondary/tertiary mechanisms promotes or normalizes or encourages thinking lesser of or treating lesser a group of people based upon some fact of their person that has no bearing on their value as people (aka race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, etc.). Systemic Bigotry is thus a very indirect and sometimes unintentional form. It is in some cases perhaps even designed to be indirect and thus plausibly denied.
These are dogwhistles, casual use of bigoted epithets or stereotypes in ways that maybe aren't directly targeting the group they disparage but nonetheless through their casual use normalize and potentially promote thinking lesser of and treating lesser the groups they refer to. This is how certain economic policies promote ghettoization or exploitation or neglect of certain minorities and marginalized groups, how certain policing policies or distribution of beat patrols indirectly affect and contribute to certain already marginalized groups' continued marginalization.
The individuals who participate in these Systemic Bigotry actions/words/systems/policies/etc. need not actively personally hold opinions that think less than a group of people. By the definition of Systemic Bigotry it is intention neutral because it is entirely about the effect on the group marginalized by the action and not about the intention of the action. That's sort of where the Systemic part of it comes from it’s a function of the system not necessarily the individuals within it. This isn't to say Active Bigotry cannot occur in tandem with or promote Systemic Bigotry or vice versa, this is merely definitions of these two different mechanisms which can interact with or without each other in a variety of different ways.
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So those two types are forms of the "ur" or general notion of Bigotry. From their definitions, I define General Bigotry as any action, words, systems, policies, etc. (really any noun) that through any mechanism of effect promote, normalize, or affect the oppression of, marginalization of, or thinking lesser of a group of people for no reason other than some fact of their person that has no bearing on their value as people (aka race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender, etc.).
General Bigotry thus inherits properties of both Active and Systemic Bigotry. Following that, General Bigotry is effectively intention neutral since it encompasses both the intention neutral Systemic and the intention specific Active subtypes. Active Bigotry is General Bigotry and Systemic Bigotry is also General Bigotry, ergo General Bigotry must take the trait that allows for both which is being intention neutral.
I define General Bigotry in this way because the issue that society is concerned with dealing with is primarily the Effect of marginalization, oppression, and thinking lesser of groups of people based on things that’s have no bearing on their value as people. From that perspective, the intention of perpetrators of any subtype of Bigotry is somewhat secondary to highlighting and addressing the effect.-
PART 2: AFFECTING CHANGE
Since, as you said, we cannot know or directly address people's internal thoughts and intentions in many cases, people who care and want to find actionable ways of affecting change regarding Bigotry can instead more readily and more accurately recognize and address Effects. We can recognize normalization, marginalization, and observe oppression in ways we can't really do with intention. Similarly we can't force or make people not want to do or think things directly, but we can create social systems and mechanisms to make actions that cause the effect more difficult, highlight and educate about the nature of the effect, and thus address the effect and hopefully cause people to avoid the intention as well.
One of the best mechanisms is calling out Bigotry (be it Active or Systemic) as Bigoted. As a result, we are able to know that people who a.) are made aware of their actions as Bigoted and/or b.) perpetuate their Bigoted actions/words/etc., must then also be Bigoted as they become a meaningful and explicit mechanism of promoting Bigotry (by above definitions: they are promoting, normalizing, or encouraging the marginalization, oppression, or thinking lesser of a group based upon things unrelated to the their value as people).
In these terms, the goal of calling a person and their actions Bigoted is a clear denunciation of their bigoted actions and a call for everyone to re-evaluate what the bigoted actions are, to understand how the actions and their perpetuation of the words or actions is bigoted, and to understand how that makes them part of the system of bigotry and thus bigoted as well.
If a Policy or phrase or word is Bigoted because it promotes or normalizes the marginalization, oppression, or thinking lesser of a group of people (based upon facts of their person unrelated to their conduct or value), then it is a clear and natural extension of that logic that any other noun, including a person, who does the same is also Bigoted right?
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The goal of calling someone and their actions Bigoted is to show people and to very explicitly tell people that whether they realize it or not their actions are doing things that are one way or another promoting or normalizing the degradation, harm, marginalization, or thinking lesser of a group for reasons unrelated to their value as people.
In that way it is meant to feel bad, it is meant to encourage reflection and to consider one's actions and I don't think people should take it as a personal affront: it’s an attempt to communicate an effect, and if one cares about being a good person and about the rights and value of people universally it naturally behooves them and should naturally be the clear route that they try to understand how their actions are being seen as and in fact are Bigoted and recognize that and hopefully apologize and attempt to be more aware and avoid those pitfalls of Bigotry in the future.
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In that perspective it is clear to me that the logical thing here is to call out things, actions, words, even people as Bigoted when the effects are there. And so I guess that's my long reason why I think that qualifying people's reaction to deadmau5 here as an "over-reaction" or "useless in stopping bigotry" is simply wrong. Social structures that call out and disincentivize Bigotry are really one of the only solutions we can implement to actually affect change. Again the primary concern here is the effect, where even if deadmau5 did not "mean" it he is still contributing to the effect of Systemic Bigotry and ergo our social structures to call him out and disincentivize future use are working as intended. The reason why songs and pop culture and media became so chockfull of bigoted words in the first place is because we didn’t have a structure to call out, educate, and disincentivize those forms of Systemic Bigotry and one of the ways we can reverse that so that future kids and adults don't fall into the pitfalls you and others have fallen into with constantly hearing the bigoted epithets and normalizing them for casual use is to again call out, educate, and disincentivize them every time we encounter them.
So don't think there is anything wrong with calling deadmau5 bigoted here even if we don't know explicitly whether or not he personally believes those things, I mean hell no one can ever 1000% truly know what anyone other than ourselves thinks truly; yet through logic and understood terms and definitions and observing and recognizing behaviors and actions and importantly the effects, we can draw, and do draw, definitions and conclusions and in fact all society and really all communication relies upon us being comfortable defining things in this way. The key is that we are basing this upon specific and clear actions and their effects that are directly related to the issue we are concerned with. Which I think is where we agreed at the start, that the effect of using those word is bad.
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I do want to apologize for assuming your capacity to change vocabulary is similar to mean. I have no idea if it is or is not and do not mean to claim to know one way or another. The issue I take is more with your declaration that humans generally are impossible to change their vocabulary.
But beyond that, again I hope you can see how even if that is the case for you that that there is still significant value in calling out usage of the words (intentional or not) in terms of changing and preventing bigotry in our society. Again please read the posts linked at the bottom which will do a better job explaining my thoughts than I can now.-
Rip thought the site ate my first reply. I think my connection is flaky on my phone.
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Rofl, that isn't an excuse. When I was young and dumb and full of cum racist and homophobic word usage online, I learned at some point that it's bad. I stopped using those words. I haven't used them in over a decade. It's really not hard, this excuse is just laziness and creating an out for what is more likely is a simple lack of giving a shit.
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My understanding was that he was not talking to the player / there was no voicecom, that the situation was comparable to him playing alone at home and shouting out curses, except that he forgot that he had a stream going. If he hadn't forgotten or just lost control in general, would he really have said those words, knowing full well how the media would react?
Lines in the sand, I know. But they are relevant lines. Intention or lack thereof matters.-
In a time of emotional loss of rationality, you go to your go to phrases/actions which you do all the time.
This is why people trained in combat arts are not good people to attack by surprise. Even more so if they are trained FOR COMBAT.
This is why "In vino, veritas." Your rational brain filter telling you "No, don't say that! Don't DO that!" is fuuuuuuuuuuucked up and watching Mad TV.
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I guess the issue here is that a.) he’s not just shouting them alone in his home (he is purposefully and presumably knowingly streaming to an audience, you have to set up and press stream to stream after all) and b.) even if he wasn’t he seems to not at all understand how his casual derogatory use of the words is bad much less understand enough to even care to offer even a half hearted apology. Like he literally refused to apologize or understand how even if he didn’t “mean” it it is still bad.
Like to your credit you get the second part and I assume you would apologize if you did what he did since you said yourself, you already feel bad when you do slip up alone by yourself.-
I'm not defending his reaction to the situation. I mean I feel like he kind of admitted he was wrong to do it between the lines when he said he "tilted", but he should have just flat out apologized instead of raging on about whatever.
Yes, I would most certainly apologize.
His music sucks.
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If you can control yourself in public you can control yourself at home. And streaming is public. These are just bad excuses.
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I'm always surprised at the "but it's commonly used" argument. I don't care that he used "nasty" words until he got to the last one, which goes under the hate speech category. I imagine that's where the line was crossed.
It's also a bummer that deadmau5 doubled down instead of issuing an apology.-
Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's OK because it's common. I'm saying it sticks because it's common and in a heated moment one's self censorship can fail.
I'm not against calling the guy out for using the f-word, and I agree it was far worse than the other cussing. I'm against a single instance of it being made such a big deal, both in terms of banning him and judging his character.
And my motivation for taking part in this thread is not that I think that people should get to say things like that and no-one should bat an eye. My motivation is that I truly believe that it does more harm than good in terms of ridding this world of bigotry when we give the bigots reason to profile us as unreasonable when we overreact in ways like these.-
My question would be, why is a word of hate speech common in someone's vernacular? I don't believe it should be.
He slipped up, and I would feel completely different about it if he had said "sorry, this is something I need to work on, I know this is hurtful," etc. But instead it was a "screw you guys" response.
I agree the ban is a pretty strong response by Twitch, but the article mentions they're coming down harder on this stuff.
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I have so many sub-threads going with so many people I feel it's reasonable to note that I'm going to call it quits on this and head out for for a couple of beers WITH MY GAY FRIEND.
As I'd assumed it would be, it's been a bit of an exhausting discussion with people not reading all my replies and me having to repeat everything a few times. Should have made myself clearer in the OP.
Love and understanding all around! -
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“slips” happen, do they?
when i was a young prick i remember using that word and not understanding well enough what really made it wrong
hes a grown ass man
that word has *never* slipped since my growing the fuck up and recognizing the harm and hurt in it.
we don’t need to tolerate manchildren who want room for bigoted bullshit to just accidentally “slip”
it slips because he never gave a fuck about the impact of the word in the first place. -
I tend to agree with you...in our hyper sensitive culture right now, that is the new troll. Waiting for someone to fuck up and get them banned citing hate speech.
this dude gets banned from Twitch for losing his temper and yet we as a nation still protect the KKK to operate as normal.
I miss the times when "fag" could be used as a general insult. -
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Eh, it's true.
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I think your argument is flawed and looking at the narrowest point of view for your own purposes, of which I won't assume. He said it once, in this instance, and taken in context with his refusal to apologize, makes it clear that it is something in his lexicon. Fuck him.
I'm tired of people being racist, sexist, or thinking it's okay to call things retarded. It's 2019. Grow the fuck up.-
I never defended any of those things, as is pretty clear as day if you read just about any of my replies in this thread.
As for his lexicon... Well, that's a nice way of putting it, but you're still saying that all it took was that one word and his frustration at getting banned for that one word for you to go "fuck him".
My belief is that if we truly want to rid the world of this shit, going at people who make mistakes like rabid dogs isn't going to help, it's going to make it worse - no matter how justified your judgment may feel to you. -
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I've been saying cocksucker a lot but I blame that on binging Deadwood.
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Same. From time to time I use San Francisco Cocksucka like Woo does...
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There was another streamer who got banned for saying there's only two genders
https://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gaming/gamer-reportedly-banned-from-twitch-for-claiming-there-are-only-two-genders/news-story/80d33347cc41fae6959d45d5d6eead82-
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lol bro she is hot af but also crazy af
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1Y-oCjZrJ0&t=1m23s
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I think that was shown to be false. I cant remember why but it was definitely not for the two genders thing. if it was thatd open up a can of worms for banning people
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She reminds me of that girl who ruined The Black Eye Peas. I mean, sure they got their money adding Fergie and going from legit Hip-Hop to Oh-God-Not-That-Song-Again Dance Music, but man, is that worth your soul? Those poor dead eyed used-to-rappers. Nothing sadder than a used-to-rap who's still out there.
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There are XXY, I don't think there are YYX though, due to the egg always being X.
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Yup, TMYK!
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It's uncommon to have XXY, XYY, or XXX, each have correlated issues but they're not always present or can be subtle enough that many folks never realize they're genetically unusual, save for infertility in folks with XXY. Each of those three are something like 1 in 500 to 1 in 1000 live births.
Other variations become more rare the more duplicate chromosomes there are, and as more are added the more likely the person will present complicating issues.
There are also women who have just one X chromosome which, if I recall, aside from usually being shorter, having webbed digits, and some spatial awareness issues, doesn't confer all that much of a negative impact.
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Whomst amongst us lol. Can you imagine being this famous and worth this much money and still have this kind of 7th grade mentality? Truly amazes me how dumb people can be.
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This is fucking dumb. Like stupid as fuck dumb. As in if this is even an issue for a person or a platform fucking stupid as fuck. Sure I think calling a person a cocksucker isn't an insult, because anyone who sucks dick is awesome whether they are good or bad at it so it should be used as a term of endearment. Calling this hate speech??? Is pussy licker, hole fucker, body teaser, nipple lover an insult?
Any references to a sexual organ that may or may not be possessed by any species on the planet is forbidden!-
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using made up terms as an example for why cocksucker should be allowable is maybe a tip off for why it’s probably ok to retire that one out of obvious homophobia
to be clear that one i’ve had to think about because it’s kind of part of me thanks to hearing it a trillion times, but once you start thinking about it you start to realize oh yeah, no, people are definitely using this in the worst way and it’s time to stop defending it just because it sounds edgy and mean -
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Not to me it isn't. Just like god damn pile of shit to me doesn't mean you are a literal pile of poop from a dog. It's just shit language expressed in emotion with no context. At least to me. He's not actively persecuting LGBTQ members. Insensitive most likely to some, but hate speech or ban worthy? Doubt it in this case.
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Yes because lets bring the N word into this. Not all insults are created equal. And I don't randomly call people cock suckers, I'll call my game one because the game is being a pile of shit and I am off loading my stress. I also call games cunt nuggets, fuck faces, turd burgling mother fuckers as well.
Let me guess cunt nugget is offensive to women and chicken nuggets? And I secretly harbor complete ill will and oppress them both?-
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Whatever happened to double secret probation?
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Sounds like overkill.
Especially coming from Deadmau5... who is kind of a whack job anyway. Did you guys see his h3h3 podcast interview? That guy is socially awkward in almost an aggressive way. And I would never classify his manner of speech as "eloquent".
He does seem to know music very well though. He's an artist... and he also appears to have issues with authority, which would explain his non-apology.
Twitch classifying cock-sucker as hate speech is really fishing IMO. -
There is this strange universal truth where if I like someone's art, I probably won't like them as a person.
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As somebody who has some pretty admittedly awesome hair, I still hate that I will forever be jealous of Dave Grohl for having the best goddamned hair in rock; there are going to be monuments built to his luxurious locks!
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Deadmau5 has always been a piece of shit. The less we hear about that asshole the better.
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While I don't think he meant any hatred towards a group of people (except stream snipers) he should have known better. I get that he grew up in the 90s and people threw that word around like it was nothing, myself included, but with the amount of time that has passed with that word being extremely taboo, he's having trouble letting go if he's still using that as a go-to insult. There are better more creative insults anyway.
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I feel really bad that that millionaire man child can't stream himself playing video games anymore. Gosh, like, that really ruined my morning.
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Haha pretty much. Kinda hard to feel sorry for someone with so much. Fuck this dude.
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they have the power to fix it on their end too, just put a delay.
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I imagine a 15-30 second delay wouldn't hurt that too much, right? I mean how often are the interactions between the streamer and audience related to the game being streamed in the first place? I feel like usually when I see the streamer interacting with audience, it's usually them answering some random personal question or thanking them for subscribing or whatever.
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Even a 3-5 second added delay would be enough in most games unless the streamer is camping.
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Well I'm not thinking about games like Hearthstone, that obviously doesn't work. Somethings more fast paced though. If you're getting into the minute territory then yeah you're going to break a lot of coherence between audience and player.
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Even an FPS, say PUBG or fortnight, anything less than a minute and a sniper knows where on the map you dropped, what gear you have, what building you're in, which direction you're heading, what other buildings you've cleared, and so on. To really combat sniping, you are going to break chat interaction.
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Take Hearthstone for example. To combat stream sniping, you have to delay around 5 minutes, or else the sniper has a solid idea of the cards in your hand. However then your audience is no longer talking about the current game, but the end of the previous one. It totally breaks the back and forth.
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well basically the whole stream is just going to be on delay, so it's fine. the twitch audience is digesting it at the same time as the content, it's just not REAL time from the host/streamers perspective.
tournaments that are on private servers are one thing, people on normal public servers is something else. for example, isn't ninja's fortnite stream on 2 minute delay at all times? I'm not sure.
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twitch used to be around 10 seconds back in the day and it didnt seem to deter snipers. you just need to know the general area where they are in a battle royale game
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Any delay would decrease the chances a sniper would be about to connect to the exact same match the streamer is in, right?
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just submit to trolls? nah screw that, have more developer-streamer interaction and if theres proof, ban/punish them. its the worst when you watch an overwatch streamer and all they get is snipers who play torbjorn or symmetra because they want to get attention
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The worst sort of people?
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I don't know, I've found it pretty damn easy not to use that word in my life.
Changing your pattern of speech when you realize that some of the words you use have deep connections to horrible events in human history doesn't seem like that hard of a thing to manage. -
Since he's banned on twitch, I sent him an invite to join shacknews chatty.
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First time I glanced at this news I thought he got banned for saying "cock-sucking." I was a bit miffed that it's ban-worthy but then again isn't that also a sexual orientation slur?
I know he was actually banned for saying the f-word gay slur, and I know that straight couples engage in oral sex too, but I can easily imagine a point 10 years down the road where "cocksucker" is as unacceptable as "f--" because it's homophobic.-
Hang on, gotta get on my hiking boots for this slippery slope.
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I've never used it as a way to specifically imply someone's sexual preference, it's just been a general profanity for me. But then again when I was a teenager we used "f----t" as an insult just as freely, without thinking of the broader context. It wasn't until I was a little older and had openly gay friends that I realized how bad it was to just throw that around as an insult. I've done my best to drop that from my vocabulary since then.
Everything I could say to justify continuing use of cocksucker as an insult just sounds like a rehash of trying to justify the n-word and f-word, so I really wonder if we're going to come to the same point with it.
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