'Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe,' Valve boss says
Valve head Gabe Newell is not a fan of Windows 8. "I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space."
Valve head Gabe Newell is not a fan of Windows 8. "I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space," he said rather bluntly. "If that's true, it's going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality."
What is the cause for Newell's vitriol against Microsoft's next OS? He sees a movement away from open platforms to a closed one. Perhaps there's other reasons as well: Windows 8 brings about features like the built-in Windows Store app marketplace and Xbox Live integration--both which threaten Steam's stronghold in the PC gaming scene.
Newell argues that open platforms are important for innovation to thrive. "Valve wouldn't exist if it weren't for the PC," he said at Casual Connect (via VentureBeat). "Id Software, Epic, Zynga, Facebook, and Google wouldn't have existed without the openness of the platform."
With both Apple and Microsoft increasingly focused on closed app store-based operating systems, Valve's increasing investment in Linux starts to make sense. The company recently launched Left 4 Dead 2 on the OS, and has bigger plans for its future. "We have to start finding ways that we can continue to make sure there are open platforms. So that involves a couple of different things. One, we're trying to make sure that Linux thrives."
"Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people--in their thinking about platforms--don't realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage," Newell said. "So we're going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who's engaged with us--putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well."
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Andrew Yoon posted a new article, 'Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe,' Valve boss says.
Valve head Gabe Newell is not a fan of Windows 8. "I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space."-
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I'm at a crossroads with "X as a service", mostly because I hate being tied down. I'm about four steps away from writing off iTunes and OS X, because about the only reason I use OS X anymore is for iTunes, and iTunes' advantages for my uses are waning down to iOS' interface for playback (which has gotten progressively worse since iOS 4).
Now, Microsoft is pushing Windows 8, with the Start Screen trapping things into full-screen WinRT apps that are purchased from the Microsoft Store with a Microsoft Account. This is where Microsoft wants most future consumer programs to be sold and distributed, not through Win32 / Win64. Win32 / Win64 are still THERE, but for how long? The requirement of a Microsoft Account is another demand that I'm unwilling to meet. "It's free! All you need to do is give them your email address and create a login!" Yeah, that's too high a price for me. I only create logins for services and vendors who I'm truly going to use in the next few years. I got sick of handing out email addresses, or having to create stub honeypot email addresses, or having to manage tons of logins with Keepass.
As for the future of open computer program development without having to sign up for some developer network, it's at risk. Gabe sees this too, as it's putting at risk the ability for a company to create a service of their own. Steam on PS3 only got done because of deals with Sony, and I'm guessing it still requires a PSN account. Remember back when Microsoft was under anti-trust scrutiny after the Netscape vs. Internet Explorer days? Maybe those days are "quaint" by today's standards, but there should be OSes that don't trap in people; that's basically whittling down to Linux and other hobbyist OSes like NetBSD.
Anyway, these are thoughts, about to get picked apart by the Windows 8 / XBLA fanboys.-
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Taking that too far is irresponsible; imagine if Notepad required a Microsoft Account. Because so many things are getting trapped into closed accounts, I'm stuck with either open alternatives, or exportable alternatives (e.g.: iTunes Plus .m4a format music tracks can be exported to other systems without DRM restrictions).
You can take pride in closed systems all you want, but when you start complaining about PSN going down, Gawker getting hacked, or EA killing off Rock Band iOS (all three of these have happened, by the way), don't forget that by subscribing to these services, you set yourself up for inconvenience when things go wrong.
I remember the time when a number of Windows Server 2003 systems affected by KB912354 went into "I'm not activated" lockdown mode because of a memory leak. It led to an unadministerable system that had to be power-cycled. Thanks, Microsoft.-
This is your standard technique for criticizing a system. "Remember that time something went wrong? That's why this entire system is obviously bad." Find me a system where that criticism doesn't apply. And of course you can easily ignore all the advantages of these new systems that many people want/enjoy on account of your hatred for connectivity in general, let alone ones that require sign in (want to apply your standard criticism technique to fully anonymous online systems?)
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You don't even know what the App Store is. The only thing closed about it is your mind. It's open and free. Desktop apps can be listed for free. HOLY SHIT FREE ADVERTISING AND A LINK TO YOUR FUCKING WEBSITE FROM A CENTRALIZED LOCATION INSIDE THE OS. WIN WIN. The only thing that isn't free is the listing of Metro, Mobile, Tablet apps which is just like any other fucking store on the web including steam. Microsoft takes a % just like Valve takes a percent of everything listed and they also don't allow you to put just anything.
So really, go back to the holiday inn you crawled in from. -
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What sucked was not the Cell architecture. It was the fact that their initial compiler was crappy and generated poorly optimized code, their debugger was (and still is) hell to use, and their SDK is mostly documented in mechanically-translated English (from Japanese source).
Every major feature that they wanted games to use was half-assed at launch, or didn't launch with the PS3 at all. For example, trophies: they came out late, the API is terrible, and you basically have to write multithreaded code just to keep your app from freezing on startup while the trophy initialization function does god-knows-what for 30 seconds (and don't try to do any hard disk I/O during that time or it'll take two minutes instead). Also, loading the SDK support for Trophies uses up system RAM that would otherwise go to your application.
Sometimes their SDK null-terminates its output strings. Sometimes it doesn't. We're talking basic programming fundamentals. Programming for the PS3 is worse than correcting homework assignments for a grad-level CS course, and I used to think that was the worst thing ever.
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Interesting; I've witnessed the framerate drop on a trophy trigger. I was in GT5 doing a timed practice run on Tsukuba Circuit, when the framerate suddenly cut down and sped up intermittently. "What the..." *BLING* Human Stopwatch . XMB is sleek at some things, but looks like a raw first-time effort at others.
I'm also kinda shocked that Sony, an international company, didn't get decent Japanese translators on their SDK documents. From your account, I'm guessing that there are entire anime series that have been translated better than the Sony SDK; that's sad.
Not that Microsoft doesn't have problems; the entire Bombcast crew is badmouthing Metro Dashboard about once every month. Both 360 Dashboard and PS3 XMB are first-generation efforts-
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I think I remember Brad saying "I have 6 GB free", or something around the range of 6 GB. Why isn't that enough cache space for Metro Dashboard to pre-stage graphical assets? Fragmentation?
My 360 slim arcade's running 2.0.13599, and it has 343 MB free. Snappy as hell, but then again, it has nothing to download, because it has no network connection. Caching stuff has been an ever-growing tactic for OS and program designers, but it seems like a strategy taken by programmers who think they have tons of space to work with. Then, they see a real-world use case where things are stalling, and they notice the heavy space usage. "But why would you ever do that?"-
"just cache it!" so simple. Indeed, 6gb sounds like enough space, especially in the context of your Arcade having much less free. So the logical answer is the problem is something else and not that simple. Caching is a fundamental technique in computing, nothing about the current state of storage has changed that. Here's a much more rational explanation than "lol Xbox devs u so dumb and never do real world stress testing": it doesn't make a lot of sense to expend significant effort optimizing performance for the < 1% case.
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Anyway, as you can see, the 360 Metro Dashboard UI sluggishness issue is not a <1% problem; I'm guessing it's about a 10% problem, but it's also being talked about among enthusiasts, in gaming press, in podcasts, and among many gamers. Some people are saying they'd prefer XMB (I personally do, since XMB has faster transitions, and a spatially consistent UI layout, which rewards muscle memory).
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Sony is institutionally broken. Not only are they pretty rough on their first time at bat, they're not getting better fast enough. The last PS3 title I shipped was a downloadable game that had a Trial version that you could upgrade to Full through an in-app purchase, or in the store, or through the dashboard. But you couldn't actually do the in the dashboard upgrade in Europe, because Sony Europe had a different testing procedure than Sony America, and the two were *incompatible* (we could only ever have the right purchase flow for one or the other) and Europe kept threatening to fail us for certification... *unless we removed the feature, which worked, and then they would pass us*. So we removed it from the Europe build.
We found out later that, as of the time of our release, nobody had ever successfully implemented the dashboard upgrade (triangle on a demo game, look for Purchase option).
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I really like Value they are a great shop etc and been awesome for PC gaming, but this seem a little crazy unless I am missing something?
So why would Steam not work on Windows 8, seems to me they don't like the competition that the new MS stores will bring(must be good if they are this concerned).
Unless Steam can not run on Windows 8 and you can no longer make C++ and C# apps for Windows 8 then I really don't see what the big deal is and why the concern.
Any one want to explain it to me?
Maybe Steam has to be Win8 Certified like XBLA? I doubt that if MS no longer lets any C++ and C# program run on windows they would basically destroy them selves that's never going to happen. There is no way Win8 is that locked down, I am going to try it on the weekend and see?-
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So Metro is locked down, so you just need your application to get approved? If that is the case then Metro aka the MS Store is freaking Steam I bet a lot of minds are blown at this point.
I still that's cool and really has huge potential I really can only see Valve hating on this for it is a built in Steam in all of the MS Win 8's but MS's.
Man MS might have done something really rad, if I have this all clear.
Regardless Steam will still work so no really has any reason to freak out. Its just a new focal point to highlight MS certified application that can easily be bought on Win 8 with a click of a button. To me the more I think of it its actually MASSIVE move by MS in a very positive way.-
Also btw Steam is totally a closed platform, you game has to be certified they need a sample of the application they have a separate SDK to use it blah blah blah I really see no difference at all.
No one can just put a game on Steam it is not open platform what so ever.
Here look at this http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/FAQ.php I looked and want to be on their platform its not a sure thing at all to get on.
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More specifically, Microsoft has a lot of corporate customers who are heavily using legacy Win32 / Win64 applications, and aren't interested in the least in WinRT or the Windows Store. If Windows 8 makes enough of those customers mad enough to flee to other OSes and office productivity suites, Microsoft stands to lose a lot of revenue.
Right now, the water cooler talk is about how Microsoft's too busy chasing the iPad to consider making truly valuable improvements in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008.-
More specifically, Microsoft has a lot of corporate customers who are heavily using legacy Win32 / Win64 applications, and aren't interested in the least in WinRT or the Windows Store.
So why do they desire a private app store on mobile but not on PCs?
Right now, the water cooler talk is about how Microsoft's too busy chasing the iPad to consider making truly valuable improvements in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008.
*eye roll*
Honestly try to describe Windows 7 improvements you think need to be made for the average user. Let's see how they match up with Win 8's features.-
My primary gripe with 7: the MMC snap-ins are too damn slow after being re-coded to .NET. The native code versions in XP and prior were much faster to load, especially on stressed systems with heavy memory usage. That's the loudest gripe right now; the others are things that are buried in background noise, that I can't think of right now; that's pretty good.
IIS 7 also still has the broken certificate completion dialog that says "Hey, I couldn't find that common name; could you try again?", when in fact the certificate request did successfully get processed. This is an acknowledged bug, documented among many CAs. Still no fix in 2008 R2. -
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You are missing something: WinRT. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Runtime#Technology
The sandbox is a huge problem.
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I know your right, but it be so awesome. If it where not for the Xbox and the 360 maybe MS would of done a Steam and been epic and pushed PC gaming. :( so depressing they hold all the chips yet they don't really do anything in that direction.
On the other hand I worship them for VS, DX, C# and there OS's of course so I really can not hate on them, but they could really do it all :(
Just like my dream of a proper Game OS from them I bet that is never going to happen(a variant of windows).
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most people aren't aware of it but it's not like MS didn't think of these things before, the execution just wasn't there http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Marketplace
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http://store.steampowered.com/app/207080/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/104600/
http://store.steampowered.com/app/92500/
they're playing with the idea
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Thats what i was thinking too.
Its just Win 7 > any linux variation out there, so even if windows 8 sucks people will stay in windows, just like it happened when windows ME was released, very few installed it but even fewer left the windows OS.
I know Linux has evolved quite a bit since then, but windows has too.
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I'd do as I did for WinXP... tried Vista dual boot and never used it after a few tries... so I uninstalled it (Vista).
I have had Ubuntu installed on my PC for ages and use it once in a while mostly for Internet use since there's no game right now for me on it. Now that Steam is starting to support it, I'll install it when there's a game I want and if more and more games become available for Linux, and I find myself booting more often in Ubuntu until I realize that it's been weeks since I booted into Win7, then I'll consider myself switched to Linux.
I'll probably keep 7 for a good while still, but I CAN do everything else on Linux except playing the games I want to play on it. (Haven't tried WINE yet since I never needed it (yet))
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Yes
Here is the previous windows shacknews article: http://www.shacknews.com/article/74882/windows-8-launches-october-26?id=28590813#item_28590813
And here is my prediction from November 2011: http://www.techpowerup.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2455784&postcount=382-
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I just see that most people taken the gabes comment out of context, it's really nothing about windows store and
You can see when i lost my temper here (link below) but this is nothing new or unknonw info, i haven't even tried the consumer preview, nothing yet.
http://forums.computerandvideogames.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=140486&p=2170376#p2170351
And if you want see sysadmins talking about it, look here, everyone's skipping except those who plan to move on next windows server. You can see how many are moving from XP to 7, for my client machine i have had 7 for like 2 years tops, maybe less.
http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/vbx3n/anyone_else_expecting_to_skip_windows_8/
http://www.reddit.com/r/talesfromtechsupport/comments/t3bpa/how_many_of_you_are_dreading_windows_8/
http://www.reddit.com/r/windows/comments/qeu2z/is_it_too_late_for_windows_8_to_be_changed_based/
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notg running games was my catalyst for switching back after several years. back in the day, quakes and unreal tournaments, and far crys in Wine etc were good. Then UT3, no Rage for forever and stuff like Crysis not working so well in Wine. Bleh. Back to windows, and not just games but everything else (aside from activations) just worked easier. Linux is a trainwreck
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And here's how the figures from StatCounter, W3Counter and NetMarketShare are calculated:
(Source: http://www.impressivewebs.com/browser-usage-stats/ )
StatCounter: "Stats are based on aggregate data collected by StatCounter on a sample exceeding 15 billion pageviews per month collected from across the StatCounter network of more than 3 million websites."
NetApplications (aka NetMarketShare): "We collect data from the browsers of site visitors to our exclusive on-demand network of live stats customers. The data is compiled from approximately 160 million visitors per month. The information published is an aggregate of the data from this network of hosted website statistics."
W3Counter: "This report was generated … based on the last 15,000 page views to each website tracked by W3Counter. W3Counter’s sample currently includes 47,262 websites. The browser market share graph includes data from all versions of the named browser families, not only the top 10 as listed below."-
Wikipedia's stats are also worth considering ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_web_browsers#Wikimedia_.28April_2009_to_present.29 ), since they are "based on server logs of about 4 billion page requests per month".
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The problem is that Metro, is not an UI fit for desktops or laptops, only for phones and Tablets.
The desktop is just an app in the OS.
And thats a really bad start for a PC OS, and for it to turn good the pros of the OS must be much greater than the cons to make that UI look a small mistake.
I think this one is going to be a disaster similar windows ME, but in this case i've heard that win 8 gives some "performance" improvements compared to Win 7, so even if its a dissaster it won't be one as big as windows ME, but close to it.
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one important point: Windows RT. on an ARM tablet, you'll have no choice but to get apps from the Windows Store, because the only non-Metro apps allowed are supplied by Microsoft. Valve could never write Steam for a Win RT tablet short of filing an antitrust complaint, so it's already locked out of part of the Windows 8 ecosystem (and heavily discouraged in another).
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They could deliver the same type of steam client they provide for iOS.
Remember when iOS was introduced they talked about how it was OS X? We don't hear much about that anymore but it is basically OS X for ARM. WindowsRT is Windows for ARM.
Both for Arm platforms are heavily locked down.
We have been OK with Apple doing it. Sure, there is bitching and moaning by people who care about such things yet idiots like me still buy that shit up.
So why should it be any different with Microsoft?-
The clearest difference I can see is the Mac was a small market and iOS wasn't one at all, so they were expanding possibilities. If Microsoft comes in and pretty much closes the PC software market either with restrictive rules or just from user preference they would be hurting a massive existing market.
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Windows 8 kind of sucks, but I also don't get some of Gabe's walled-garden criticisms given that Steam itself is a closed system that is based heavily around DRM.
I say this as a huge Steam and Valve fan with hundreds of games in my library. It is weird reasoning that I don't understand is all. I've accepted walled gardens for the most part given that they are extremely convenient and secure. Amazon Kindle and Steam are two very locked down systems that I love. I guess he dislikes ones that are tied to a single operating system, I dunno. -
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This video of Lockergnome's dad trying to use it is pretty funny: http://youtu.be/v4boTbv9_nU
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Come on guys. We all know the one thing that we care about as gamers and PC users is performance. Sure Win8 looks like ass, but if Win8 (big "if") somehow surpasses Win7 in the performance category of running our beloved gaming PC hardware then we will switch. I know I will and I'll cry like a baby about Metro the whole way. But if it eeks out more FPS... you get the point.
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I agree with Mr. Newell that absence of games is the biggest thing holding Linux back and that open platforms are important. The Linux GUI is kind of crappy in Ubuntu in my opinion, which is why I think Google replaced it in Android. I also tried the KDE and it was just as bad. I like Linux, but we need a desktop version with a good GUI and games. If it doesn't have Netflix then it needs that too. I think Windows monopoly will be ending soon, but not for PC gamers unless someone like Valve makes a long-term effort to give gamers an alternative.
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The longer we go without any information about HL3, or even evidence that it may exist, the more I am starting to suspect that HL2 was simply a trojan horse created with the sole purpose of making Steam a 'must have' piece of software. They created a game that was so good, that everyone *had* to install Steam in spite of its major problems at the time. It was all part of their nefarious strategy to lock up online/downloadable game sales before the market really even started.
I'm wondering if they ever intended to make HL3... just a necessary stepping stone to the nirvana of developing the Steam store. -
BLIZZARD ENTERTAINMENT FUELS THE FIRE: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/360383/blizzard-exec-echoes-windows-8-catastrophe-comments/
Yeeeha!
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